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Amazed and Perplexed
Ever been afraid to read the Bible because there were parts you couldnβt understand. We were, but then we realized Jesusβ apostles didnβt understand much of what he said either. They were amazed and perplexed. When they shared Jesus with others, those people were amazed and perplexed too. Join us as we look at what amazes and perplexes us about Jesus. Doubt, questions and wonder are all welcome.
Amazed and Perplexed
We Are Not Props(John 8:1-11)
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Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen
Hello, my name is Connor and I'm Jason, and you are listening to the Amazed and Perplexed podcast, so I want to honor. I believe in the most recent episode that we released, we brought to attention that there is an easy way to get a hold of us, and so we've had somebody uh approach us with a very serious question and I want to give it the honor and dignity that uh, such a serious and weighty matter uh is, you know, requires um, demands, I would even say so.
Speaker 2:This is uh. By the way, I've never heard this question before so this email is from?
Speaker 1:uh, I was gonna give the full email out, but it's from tim rush, supposedly I love that we'll see.
Speaker 1:We'll see why that, why this is posted, uh. And he says since you said we could contact you, I'm just testing the system. But if you ever answer questions from the mail mailbag quote how are babies made? Question mark signed jeremy thornton, and then he says some very kind words to how we are doing and so I want to give the best possible answer, just because I don't know. This is just something I've been thinking about a lot recently and I've been really compelled by your wife is pregnant.
Speaker 2:My wife is pregnant, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so hopefully, second time around, hopefully, I'll figure out how this whole deal works. But there's some really interesting work if you haven't dove into the Bible project about the work around God's spirit, the Ruach, his breath, and how he breathes life into Adam, and this thing can be traced all throughout the Old Testament. But one of the things I think about like when, how are human beings made? Like, how is a being made in the image of God? Ultimately, I think the answer is that the Spirit of God is literally breathed into us.
Speaker 1:And if you've ever experienced, if you've ever been in the room when a baby is born I remember when my daughter was born and she, like you know she's out and you know it takes a moment for them to start breathing and you can kind of hear we could hear a midwife.
Speaker 1:You know, come on, come on, come on and then you hear that first cry and it's like this miraculous thing, um, and if you have been in the room with somebody as they took their final breath and suddenly there's no more life there, it's like the molecules are the same but there's something gone, there's something less or something different, and I submit to you that it is the spirit of God being breathed into us, and so one of the things that's been really helpful for me and this is again, this is a direct Bible project thing, I'm totally ripping it all off is that how a human being is made, is that the breath of God is breathed into them, and that helps me remember that every breath I take is a moment that God is breathing into my life. So, tim, that is your very serious answer for how babies are made. That is beautiful.
Speaker 2:I think it's fascinating that when we say how our babies made, we always go to only the biological aspect of the progress or the process. I think that's really beautiful, not only to sidestep having to answer that or the process. I think that's really beautiful, not only to sidestep having to answer that, but no, I think that's super legitimate. And we talk about the miracle of birth, but I rarely hear people maybe never hear people talk about man, god breathed life into them in this way and so so much there. Um, but there's something really beautiful and and tim, I know it's a funny question, simply because I've answered that for you pretty much every day I for the last what?
Speaker 1:10 years. That's actually why I took the job at memorial. That's right.
Speaker 2:She's like I've got to know he had three kids and he's like kim won't explain it. Um, but no, I, I really actually appreciate now, did he say the question was on behalf of Jeremy Thornton? Is that what he said?
Speaker 1:He said how are babies made? Signed Jeremy Thornton.
Speaker 2:Jeremy Thornton is my brother to those that don't know, my younger brother and one of several, and I'm very proud of him. And Tim and Jeremy and I have known each other for decades now, and Jeremy probably. Well, I'm proud of him, and Tim and Jeremy and I have known each other for decades now. And, uh, jeremy probably. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and say Jeremy had nothing to do with that, but it is just like Tim to give him credit. But I will ask Jeremy if he needs those answers. Uh, as his he's almost he's a half empty nester right now, and so, uh, I think you should have that locked down just in case.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think you know this was a beautiful moment because Indigo has asked you know before you know. Hey, where did this baby come from? In mommy's belly, and she doesn't appreciate me explaining to her about the rule lock of God.
Speaker 1:And so you know, she just eventually I talk so much, it just bores her and she wants a snack, which is a win. You know in my book, don't we do all the right things. Snack, which is a win. You know in my book, um, don't we do all the right things. We've read all the new studies about how you talk to your kids about that stuff. Don't worry, we're not like we're not, we're not leaving her out. But for part of the joke, I have tried to explain to her about the spirit of god and then she just wants animal crackers after.
Speaker 2:That doesn't matter you know she and I have the same driver. By the way, do you have any around here?
Speaker 1:only the ones that come in the really cool boxes. I hate the big, big the big tubs, oh the tubs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want, I want the actual boxes that one small batch I want that.
Speaker 1:I want the, the boxes that imitate the, the old-timey zoos that were just rough with animal cruelty.
Speaker 2:Yes, they remind me of russian zoos. I've only been to one, but it left an impression on me, that's actually the theme of our child's nursery.
Speaker 1:It's gonna going to be Russian zoos.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got pictures. Oh, man, to see a polar bear do what kids do when they don't get any care when they're raised, that's a frightening sight.
Speaker 1:Anyway, let's just jump into the text.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're in the book of John. Finally, out of John, chapter seven, which it was a beautiful experience, it's nice to be in John 8. As we progress through the life of Christ here on Amazed and Perplexed, I just want to remind you that we are trying to do the proverbial look over the shoulder at the people surrounding Jesus, and John 7 was fundamentally about one conversation from very different perspectives, whether it's Jesus' brothers or the Jewish people that believe that, don't believe the Pharisees, the guards. I mean, you had all those looks and so it'd be a fascinating thing to even go back, not in amazement reflects but in our own thinking and just think about how the different vantage points shape what Jesus said and how people responded.
Speaker 2:But we're now moving into a more fluid narrative and a familiar narrative to most of us, in John, chapter 8. And we made a mention last episode about just this dynamic that John 7 in the late 50s there, or the early 50s there, versus through the first 11 verses of John 8 is not in as many manuscripts and so most versions have some kind of notation that says we don't know if this is exactly, we don't know if it's true, and so I don't know if you'd have anything more to say about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think here here's, I think there are two choices when it comes to how we, how we view manuscript evidence and how we view the Bible that's been handed down to us.
Speaker 1:Either we take the old school, I think. I think you can either take the head in the sand old school fundamentalist role of like nope, my Bible is is the is the same King James English that Jesus spoke, and that's you know. And again, like that's a slight caricature, you can put your head in the sand and pretend as if when Paul's writing his letters, paul's not even really there. God's just using his body as a template to write it, although I do think my understanding of the evidence is Paul probably dictated more than he actually wrote.
Speaker 2:That's just that was the letter. Somebody else was doing that. Yeah, how letter writing.
Speaker 1:So god is in the mind of paul. A lot of you can. You can do the mental gymnastics to be like, well, god is actually in paul and he is using paul's mouth to specifically give these words. Or you can take the more nuanced approach. You know these are human, uh, these are written by humans in in concert with the Holy Spirit and at the time of Jesus and after Jesus.
Speaker 1:There are many, many items that are circulating that say report different things about the life of Jesus, and how the canonization process worked is not necessarily the Da Vinci Code reality.
Speaker 1:It's not necessarily the Da Vinci Code reality, but by the time the official canonization process took place, basically the New Testament canon that we got was the accepted text that the church global had basically been like yeah, this is true, this is what we can trust, and basically that Bible is given to us today.
Speaker 1:And so when we think about specifically this example in John, chapter 8 and a little bit of 7, if you are the kind of person that wants to come down hard and be like, no, it's not in the earliest manuscripts we have right now, in July of 2025, okay, you know, that's totally fine I think that's a position that a follower of Jesus can have. On the other hand, what I would say is one I would suspect that there will be many more manuscripts. We find manuscripts of these things all the time, so saying and again in the year 2025, july 2025, that this does not match up with our earliest manuscripts. Right now, you know, and so who knows what will come, what won't come, my personal belief as it pertains to this, and really the whole of scripture if God wanted to fully excise anything from the Bible that the early Christians thought were Bible, he's got the time and he's got the resources to do it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and it's funny, as you talk about that, I think and I've been taught a lot in school and a small portion of that I've retained and this specific issue of canonization, I really do fall and sometimes I think it's head in the sand, like I choose head in the sand in this way of exactly that thinking is, god has plenty of time and I will give him all my life for him to say, hey, this doesn't count and that does count and I feel comfortable with that. But a lot of this comes down to do you trust God or do you trust your understanding of God, which typically is your interpretation of the scriptures you know, and so and there's a difference- you know, and so, as a person that tries to force himself to acknowledge that difference, oh, I'm not trusting God.
Speaker 2:I'm trusting in my interpretation of his word, which those may be the same thing in terms of the facts that you're considering. Like I trust that Jesus is the Son of God and the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God. But there are times that, well, bottom line, if you've ever read the Bible, and you say to yourself I've never noticed that before. Oh, that changes the way I think about that. Well, the Bible hasn't changed and God hasn't changed. It's just your understanding, your interpretation of that thing has changed, and I think it's, I was going to say foolish, but I think it may even be sinful to say I know what I know and I'll never know anything new.
Speaker 2:That's literally saying I'm no longer going to be a disciple, because disciple means learner, and so, and Jesus often will say, man, you got to be open to the new. You got to be open to the new because God will teach you.
Speaker 1:That's really helpful and I think it's clarifying the idea of like having my head in the sand and trusting God. I think the difference between the kind of head in the sand you're talking about versus the not allowing any questions about the formation of the Bible to come in is if tomorrow across the Mediterranean there are new, they find new caves, they have all over the Mediterranean and they get all these examples of New Testament documents and there's even, there's contemporary writings at the time Like hey, there's these other people saying again they didn't have the verses, but John 7.53 through John 8.11 is part of the gospel. We just want you to know. We know the guy who came up with that. That's not true. Go talk to the other church in this place and that place and then we go and we find documents from them Like again, that could happen and if that happens, okay cool.
Speaker 1:This could all be in the long process century. Um, you know, we as the church global decide hey, I think we're gonna excise this portion of scripture. We don't think it adds up. If jesus comes back tomorrow, that feels like, well, that's kind of weird that god would let that go on. But if it's 40 000 years from now, that's like, oh, that's pretty early on in the history of the church that, uh, that that god worked that out and I and I and I can trust god with that, and so, yeah, I think we're not textual experts in any way. There's a lot of good stuff out there, both from people who completely believe in the Bible and Jesus and God and people who don't, and none of it should make you afraid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's it. God wants you to feel faith, and that's inviting what you just said is so important. He wants you not to be afraid of the work of the devil. He wants you to feel faith, and that's inviting what you just said is so important. He wants you not to be afraid of the work of the devil. He wants you not to be afraid of the future. He also wants you not to be afraid of making mistakes, of misunderstanding something. It's not that he wants you to misunderstand. He's just like you're a human, You're going to misunderstand some stuff.
Speaker 2:And if there's anything we learn from the apostles is they did not get it the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth time. And he's not like I'm done until you get it. He's just like hey, as long as you're willing, I'll keep teaching you, and I think that's important. So we're jumping into this story and the last we heard from Jesus is that everybody if I remember correctly, everybody goes home. They all went home, and so Jesus went to wherever he was, which was the Mount of Olives. And that's what we learn in verse one of chapter eight, and it leads into this interaction which has been well discussed. I'm sure if you've been in church circles at all, but I'm intrigued with what God will give us today. I'm going to jump in there in verse one.
Speaker 1:So real quick, I do want to just a little bit of context, I think, to give some dignity to the one caught in adultery. Spoiler alert, if you still haven't caught on to that that's what we're talking about. That's what we're talking about today, and so this is happening Again. This is happening at the end of the Festival of Tabernacles. A lot of what we talked about, uh, the past few weeks is taking place during the festival of tabernacles. This is the end.
Speaker 1:So this is the culmination of like a week long party, um of people gathering from all over Israel in in Jerusalem, uh, to celebrate and to um and take part into this, into this festival, um, and so when you begin to realize that this woman caught in adultery this is, she's caught in adultery um, basically in the penultimate day of this festival, where people have been gathering, drinking, partying, um, you kind of get this.
Speaker 1:This takes on a more um, this feels like more approachable where, as I always grew up, when I would read the story and be like, well, that's kind of weird, like you know, this random woman gets caught in adultery, but when you place it into the proper context of like this massive festival and this woman's walk of shame is put on for all to display like it makes it makes what she's going through all the more. It helps, at least for me. Putting in the proper context helps me truly get a better picture of what this moment with Jesus must feel like to her, on top of all the things that are about to happen in the context of what her past 24 hours must have been. And then going forward, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's really good and that's honestly. I'm glad you brought it up because I had disconnected it from seven. But this is a direct connection, even to the point. A lot of times chapter breaks are they don't do it in the middle of the action, but in this again, the manuscript, the later manuscripts, have Jesus's response to that interaction. But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives as the first part of the next chapter, which is unusual. They usually don't break the action up that way, but I do think this is a way that maybe the original people that did the canonization and put you know the original manuscripts didn't have chapter and verses, if you didn't know that, that's true. And so I do wonder if they want to say hey, I don't want you to miss this. This is an extension of the virtual same conversation and I won't say anything more there. I'll get to that with what amazes me, I think. So verse one of John, chapter eight. But John went to the Mount of Olives, not John. Let's go back. This is going to be about Jesus. Here we go.
Speaker 1:Oh, 11 minutes. I didn't get there. I'm like, oh, who are we?
Speaker 2:talking about. But Jesus, there we go went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery In the law. Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?
Speaker 2:They were using this question as a trap in order to have a basis for accusing him, but Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them Let any of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. Again, he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away, one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her Woman where are they? Has no one condemned you? No one, sir. She said. Then neither do I condemn you. Jesus declared Go now and leave your life of sin. Okay, so after all that now we're at 13-minute mark or whatever. Yeah, what amazes you?
Speaker 1:I mean there's so much here I am just struck by. Well, there's so many things that amaze me about this interaction, but what I'm drawn to is towards the end of this passage and thinking about what this woman would have been going through, what led her up to the point of committing adultery, what sort of shame was she feeling? Are, and so like, obviously, um, if I was to go commit adultery, I would feel lots of shame. But even what I would feel about it probably wouldn't fully um, fully get to how she feels. Um, and I mean there's so, there's so much here. But I think about um to go from.
Speaker 1:She makes this really awful mistake and then she's used as she's, she's singled out, she's used as a prop um, she's objectified and then, at the end of it, she's left alone with the savior of the world offering her mercy and and forgiveness and grace. And I I just think, um, the whirlwind for that for her must have just been so, so crazy to think about. Um, to think about. If, tonight, let's just I would think about somebody you know who, like, maybe they're living a life that you're like, man, I don't think that's really healthy for them to think about. Tonight they're gonna make a really awful decision for themselves, incredibly unhealthy and destructive for them and for other people. And then to think, but yeah, that's going to lead to literally God, to that person getting a moment alone with God. That's just amazing.
Speaker 2:It is, it is and those social dynamics. Sometimes that's hard for us. That's why I think a lot of people have enjoyed the Chosen, because it at least gives one person, one writer's perspective on. Here are the social dynamics separating this, but I think it is important to remember the Bible did not have to be written this way. Jesus could have just it, could have just been the teaching and dealing with your oxen, do this, and dealing with your neighbor, do that, you know, like Leviticus, you know. But instead we have this mostly narrative story of Jesus interacting with real people. So I do think it's significant and maybe that's self-evident, but I certainly wouldn't raise that way Every time I'd read a story. It's about what's the moral Like?
Speaker 1:basically, what are you doing wrong that you need to stop is how I read the bible. Yeah, you know, what's so incredible to me about this is like jesus addresses the danger that she's in both, like both literal, physical danger of possible death, and then the religious and cultural danger she's in um, but like if jesus was just gonna like, jesus doesn't. What's so, what's so incredible about it is is the pharisee they want to use this woman as a prop and jesus very easily could use woman as a prop, and Jesus very easily could use her as a prop if he wanted to, and he could turn around and he could be like and use her, like pick her up and use her as a sermon, you know, as a sermon prop, to then go and expound upon this. But the meat of what, when Jesus of G, when, when Jesus is directly dealing um with her and what is going on in her heart and her life, Um, it's one-on-one Um and that that is so, so dignifying Um.
Speaker 1:Because man, if there was anybody like collectively that that he, Jesus, would have like gotten a pass for, uh, dehumanizing, it would have been this woman, because once she was a woman so she didn't matter as much. Like, again, very common to point out. Where's the guy that also committed adultery? What you know, what's going on with him, Didn't matter to the Pharisees. It was the woman, because you know, she was basically the ideal prop to try to use him. Use as a trap. And Jesus does not just free this woman, does not just save her life, but he also just completely obliterates the notion that God is okay with one treating women this way and also just treating human beings as anything less than the dignified image bearers that they are. They are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is one of those. It's like when he touches the leper and he doesn't need to, he just could have healed him. It's him saying this isn't just hey, I came to heal, job done. You know, this is a real connection and it's a tremendous teaching tool on, not that you would do this specific word, but the spirit of helping people.
Speaker 2:I think what amazes me is and I'm thinking of myself from Jesus' perspective instead of from the woman's perspective for this point but I'll take a simple thing like opening the door for someone. When I open the door for someone to get in, so that's an expression of grace, um, through kindness, I'm being kind of open the door. If they say thank you, then it's like it's been transactional I did for them, they did for me, we're all good. Or if they're like, oh, you're very kind. Oh no, don't mention it, you know. But if they walk through and they say nothing, then I make a judgment. They're. If they were to smack me while I was doing it, I would be like that is ridiculous. And if they were to shove me to the ground and beat on me, I'm like there must be a judgment. Or let's say the verbal they just who do you think you think you're better than me? Open the door, that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Jesus just spent the day the day before dealing with, I presume, these same Pharisees. These are the same Pharisees that sent guards to arrest him and it wasn't successful. And to me this is. It makes more sense, and I'll elaborate in a second. If this is premeditated, it makes a little bit more sense to me, although I completely accept that it wasn't premeditated.
Speaker 2:They encountered this lady. It became evident, oh, she committed adultery and they took her to him. But the fact that he chose to show kindness to the Pharisees and show them and allow them with dignity, where he could have easily said you care nothing about this woman because you care nothing about God, I mean, this has been the perfect time to unload on these guys and he gives them a dignified way to walk away, that's stunning, that level of self-control, that he's not seething with anger over what happened the day before, and now it's even going lower. It's one thing for them to come with power and say we're in charge, the guards are here. It's another thing to take a completely vulnerable person and be manipulative. Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And you think about if Jesus had used an opportunity to rightfully rip into them with this woman at his side, like what does that mean for that woman's future? Where it's like, hey, not only does the whole, like everyone around, know that she committed adultery, but also she's now wrapped up with this rabbi, fellow Jesus, who's a revolutionary, who's going to get us all killed, and then, for all we know, she becomes even a further object of anger from the Pharisees or from the religious elite.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, the discipline and just the care that Jesus uses in the scenario, it's just mind boggling it is, and you know, tim Rush is the first one I heard suggest that when it says was this woman was caught in adultery, so that's past tense. Is it likely in this small community that she had been wearing, actually, that scarlet letter for a long time, you know? And so she became known and the Pharisees who the day before tried to solve the Jesus problem with the guards, are now saying, okay, we need to find another way to solve it. Ooh, get that woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we bring her up and to me, I mean it matters to her. But to me, if she had just committed adultery and this was fresh and let's say it was the first time she committed adultery, that is awful. If adultery and this was fresh and let's say it was the first time she committed adultery, that is awful. If she committed adultery a while ago and now was ostracized and she was dragged in kind of like the woman at the well felt, you know, I mean either way, the offense of them treating her, like you were saying, as as a prop, so offensive. And then, and this can easily get to, what perplexes me is how do I not make people how do I?
Speaker 2:not make the last as a minister, the last conversation that I had with a person, that that person's story then becomes a prop for a moral of the story, absolutely you know that that is that is really difficult.
Speaker 1:I do think um, there is a, whether it was adultery committed in the past or the night before, um, I it is. It is worth pointing out that, again, this is happening at the end of a big, long festival, so I don't mean to get too mature. I would have to imagine there was other adulterers in that crowd, as one of the massive festivals that takes place around Jerusalem, there would have been people traveling in and out.
Speaker 1:And generally speaking, even when really religious people party and drink, usually that doesn't lead to the best outcomes, and so the fact that this woman gets singled out and I begin to wonder, like whether it was in the past or if it was the night, of what that would mean to anybody else.
Speaker 1:the night before that had experienced that had also sinned or not even committed adultery, but drank too much and then went home and did something, whatever it would be, I just think for the people that would hear about this or witness it I love the idea of it happening a long time ago and then the people that knew about her and then hearing about it for the first time, or if it happened the night before, and the person that thinks, wow, I just got scot-free because I heard the five tenths over. That woman was caught in adultery and the Pharisees yanked her away, and now she's dealing with this and little do they know. Five tenths over, I'm also committing adultery.
Speaker 2:Right, but then also it's like when somebody gets pulled over, yeah. That's in front of you Like oh, I was also speeding.
Speaker 1:And you think about what it would have meant for them. And then later on, I'm so excited to get into what Jesus will then say about, um, we'll then say, and how this would have connected to all all these sorts of people. Um, I do. It is important to remind ourselves, like there was probably somebody in that crowd who did commit adultery and, in their mind, got away with it and then maybe they just kept going committing adultery. Yeah, and the grace.
Speaker 1:It is better for this woman, ultimately, that she was caught in her adultery and got to meet Jesus, to meet Jesus. And so, like again, we had a previous conversation before we started recording about not wanting to go through pain or not wanting to go through a heartache, but how it's usually, the most can be the most transformational time of our lives in terms of growing closer to God. And now you were speaking more in terms of tragedy happening to us. But even being caught in our sin, or even being caught in our own you know, in our own mistakes, can be a grace. And again, when that isn't happening to you that can seem like good news, but in the moment, that could not have felt like good news, but I think it is important to point out that this woman met literal God and experienced a personal touch of forgiveness and grace and mercy, because she was caught and yeah, I don't know what to do with it, but it's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One of the things I know, if something is a good movie, especially if I don't anticipate 12 sequels coming for it is oh man, I want to know what happened to him a year from now, two years from now. This is a lady I want to sit with 10 years later and say, hey, what happened?
Speaker 1:What happened.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm just so curious because it does feel almost a little negligent. And usually, I think, in the past, when we process the scripture, my perplexion is why does Jesus leave her so vulnerable? Because if it's just happened, now she's got to deal with this. I would think he'd be like, hey, go and send them more and find a 12 step or something you know kind of thing. I'm not going to go that direction with that now.
Speaker 1:Or you'd be like hey, martha, you want to like disciple her for a while.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 1:Actually, here's a great entry step. We'll start our intern process here of really getting you know.
Speaker 2:Exactly right. Yeah, come follow me when I circle back to this place. Some kind of security, and then that just shows Jesus entrusted these people with God. You know, even his leaving of the apostles as big of that as there's this plan he's going to call apostles, going to leave these apostles they're plan A to share his word how threatening that would feel, you know it's just. Yeah, it's perplexing. How to know how he felt safe, leaving people unprotected, absolutely. You know that's perplexing. But the thing I want to really key on I want to be really perplexed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, in this moment, perplexing me is he trusts God with the response of the bad guys in the story. Then he's next level with this, like, if you imagine, all right, connor, I wrote some guidelines on how to confront people that are going to murder somebody else. And you're like, okay, tell me more. And I'm like first, say nothing. You're like now what? Yeah, they're going to make these accusations and they don't stop, like we have these small questions, but it says they keep questioning. So you're going to bend down and write in the dirt. What am I writing in the dirt?
Speaker 1:I'm like I'm not going to tell you it doesn't matter, I'm not going to tell you.
Speaker 2:So you write in the dirt, I get it. You're basically saying I acknowledge that she deserves this. So what we're going to do is we're going to vet the participant. If you don't have sin, then you can stone her and then they go away slowly and then you just bend down, like what happens when they throw the stones, because I don't trust people enough not to throw the stones, especially if they're already setting up this, this girl, this lady, in such an evil way and he entrusts conviction of the, of the spirit, I suppose, on these men's hearts to not stone her.
Speaker 2:These are the same people that in other settings, will try to stone him, yes, and eventually will stone. Not the same individuals, maybe, but the same type of who will stone. Not the same individuals, maybe, but the same type of person who will stone Stephen to death or stone Paul, thinking they're stoning him to death. And I'm like I am so perplexed. How would you trust these guys? And these are Bible-studying, monotheistic guys, but they clearly weren't loving and they don't care for her because of what you said the prop. That's mind-blowing to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that is fascinating, that's mind-blowing to me. Yeah, no, that is, that is. It is fascinating and think about what jesus, how, how, what, what were the possibilities in the mind of jesus of how could this go? Did, did he have a, a knowledge that it would play out exactly how it played out? Or was it one of many possibilities where, like he knew, oh, like, if I say that, like, say this, it might cause one person to stone and then, because one person through the first stone, it's a lot easier for people to join in afterwards and then, um, is it is, is the? Is the next version?
Speaker 1:Is the possibility that jesus is like, oh, like, I'll heal her, whatever, you know, whatever, or is it like right, yeah, I've forgiven her, I've given her, I, I like, I know, I'm going to give this woman mercy, like if she, if she was, if, uh, like I know, I'm going to give this woman mercy, like if she, if she was, if, uh, like I know, I'm going to give her mercy. Um and so, if she dies now, okay, you know, like I, I, I trust the father with that. Thinking about through the possibilities of how, of how this would play out, is so, is so perplexing because in my mind I just watched a hostage hostage movie recently.
Speaker 2:so this is fresh on my mind. It's kind of like a hostile situation where, like you feel like you need to get like.
Speaker 1:Every word has to be completely measured because, as as they're seeking a way and there's some people that think that, like they had no intention of stoning this woman here- now there's some people who believe that um I don't, I don't know whether that's, whether that's true or not.
Speaker 1:Um, certainly they're ready to pounce on any mistake he made or, you know, any mistake she made because of him. In that moment, I find myself perplexed by. I am also perplexed. I am also perplexed by what you're talking about where, like, every word that Jesus is saying here is so weighty and is and somebody's life is in the balance and I guess this is true for all the life of Jesus where, like his words, all of our lives are in the balance, but when it's actually, when a life is, life is potentially, potentially imminently going to be over, based on the response of people to his words, like how, how, yeah, how he's, how he's.
Speaker 1:So I don't say cavalier about it, um, and maybe it is cavalier, like, how, like, and for all we know, jesus could have said these things like we read it and it's kind of like in this, in this easy, calm, calm manner. And maybe it wasn't, maybe it was more, you know, maybe he said it in in clipped ways or maybe, you know, maybe he had classic hostage negotiator right, uh, after he bent down and stood up. Maybe it was kind of like a keeping the. Yeah, I just saw watch your at the jurassic world again. Not a good movie, doesn't hold up. But we're like you know, the. The classic thing in the new jurassic world is where the whole they'll put their arm out to hold out the raptor and it just keeps happening, or maybe?
Speaker 1:maybe, maybe there's some of that, maybe there's some body language here that he's trained.
Speaker 2:We don't know. Well, there's also the mystery yeah, if he's writing down and that's this makes sense if he's writing down the list, yeah, well, let's say you and I are there and uh, and he says, what he's writing in the dirt is connor and then a list of your sins, sure yeah, and it was like really penetrating.
Speaker 2:And true, jason. Here's a list of jason. Since then, all of a sudden I'm like, well, that makes sense. I do think it's fascinating again, the bible doesn't record a ton of stuff that would be fascinating to know. Why record that he writes twice in the dirt and not tell us what he writes? That's another thing that's like hugely, you know oh, that's just perplexing.
Speaker 1:That's 100 my perplexion it always has been and it's funny because there are things you know. I've heard the explanation of him writing their sins, but again, like, maybe, maybe not, although I do think, man, that could probably cause somebody to like throw a stone earlier because, like, if it's true if it's like, oh, jason, we're writing out his sins. Like I'm gonna look at jason and be like, oh, some of that's true, whatever.
Speaker 1:Then he starts to write connor and like if I'm like worried about my reputation just going to be like if somebody throws a stone out there, maybe he won't write my sins.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no, I think there are a lot of times in Scripture where we'll have mystery around a situation and you can kind of dance around and play with it, but this is just fundamentally one of those things where it's like this is between Jesus, the woman and the Pharisees, and it's like that.
Speaker 1:There is something like that in scripture where God's like you don't need to know about that You're good, you're good, and so, again, I could choose to be amazed by it in this moment and be like, is it a way of honoring the Pharisees? And if it is something like he wrote the sins of what they were doing, or I've heard he was writing out different laws of the old testament, or you know, whatever would be. Um, if it was something intimate, like maybe, if that would maybe lead me to believe it was something intimate between just the pharisees and jesus and the woman caught in adultery, like, is that a way of him?
Speaker 1:also not using them as a prop. I don't, I don't know, yeah, but but it's so much still so perplexing, because if it was he wrote, if he was quoting the Old Testament, then it's like that'd be good to know. I feel like that'd be helpful to know, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in terms of application it is challenging. I do want to amplify this one point, which probably would fit into amazement. If you're ever trying to help somebody, like you see somebody in need and you're in a position where you can help them, the question that always crosses your mind is how much is enough? You know, from the simple, I have a dollar that I can give them, but I can also give them this hundred dollar bill to. I listen to them, but I know they have a world of problems and they're going to need intensive counseling and discipleship for years and years and years. And that's always possible. It's always possible that God will lead you to do it. But I'm so impressed with Jesus giving her what she needed and not taking responsibility for her faith, not taking responsibility for her journey. And we have no idea had Jesus talked to her 10 times, for this, the first time he's meeting her. Will he see her 12 times after? We don't know, but there's no record in the New Testament of him ever seeing this woman, and we touched on it in the sense of we feel like he should give her more structure. But Jesus' confidence that what God had led him to do was what was needed to do is a confidence we can have.
Speaker 2:I was with somebody earlier. I talked to that person. I'm saying real time. She was in some crisis. I talked to her.
Speaker 2:I have all this stuff in me that says I need to do more, I need to do more, I need to do more, and that may be true, but it also may be true that I did what I need to do. And the key here is I just keep asking God, and if God gives me the opportunity to do more, I should do it. But if he doesn't, then I shouldn't do it and feel just as good, because I do not take on the salvation of anybody else. I have my salvation to tend to and then I have blessing to give from that security. But the devil loves to take a good situation and turn it evil by saying you're responsible for this person. And I would just say to the person out there that's trying to help the woman caught in adultery in their life I would want them to take a signal from Jesus. Do what you can, offer it to God and then, if God gives you another opportunity, act and if not, feel totally at peace.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe this is simple and maybe this is a duh sort of statement for um, for the listener or even maybe for us, like if we thought about it for more than five seconds. But I do wonder and it's this circumstance, when we're like man, why does Jesus not feel compelled to do more, Like if what we can have confidence in, whether it's the person we meet with or somebody who asks for money or whatever the situation would be how do we trust that we've done enough or whatever? So, ultimately, we trust God and ultimately it's what we trust in, in Jesus life, death and resurrection. And like does Jesus. Is that how Jesus operates too, when he's like he thinks about what this woman could go through and all the things that she's going to need, and he's like listen, I gave. In the moment when she was with me, I gave her exactly what we need and and also I know, I know where, where my life is going, and I ultimately know I am going to offer her what she needs fundamentally no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Whether this is the most substantiated story or not, it is certainly a story I probably touch on consciously and subconsciously all the time, as an example of Jesus entering real pain and real trauma and real deception and real injustice which we're not running out of injustice in the world, sadly, you know but to think, hey, this is how he stayed sane. He trusted God, the middle love, the people in front of them, both the accuser and the accused man. That's a great thing for me to just take in today, yeah that is that is so helpful and it's a good reminder.
Speaker 1:Whether it's you personally, personally, or somebody you know in your life who is doing active, actively destroying their life or making just horrific decisions for themselves and others, for all you know, they could be 12 hours away from literally being in the presence of God and, again, very painful experience. Wouldn't wish this on somebody, but that can give me hope that we never know when exactly God is going to show up in a massive way. But it's also comforting to know, just because we don't know, the exact moment or time where that might take place. It also means, for all I know, two seconds from now I could feel God more strongly isn't the right word. I could feel his presence more than I've ever felt it before. Two seconds from now, and, yeah, that's just a reality of being human and that's something I want to hold on to Grace, peace and love. Thank you.
