Tell Us Plainly(John 10:22-31)

𝐓𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐔𝐬 𝐏𝐥𝐚𝐢𝐧𝐥𝐲(𝐉𝐨𝐡𝐧 𝟏𝟎:𝟐𝟐-𝟑𝟏)

Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, my name is Connor, and I'm Jason, and you're listening to the Amaze and Perplex podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Well, welcome back. Uh or welcome if you've not been here before. I this is our journey uh presently through the New Testament, specifically through the life of Christ, watching over his shoulder. And we're in the book of John. I rent a long time in John, and I'm I'm the only one feeling this probably, but it is most of our our journey has been jumping between Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And it's, you know, there's a lot of you can choose Luke's version of it. But with John, he has a lot of unique content and a lot of connected content that runs longer. And so we're we've had multiple, I guess starting in chapter nine, uh, maybe even in chapter eight, we started, and now we're in uh 10, uh, and there is that part. But lots of life here, lots of good stuff. Jesus is in uh a rather protracted conversation, and it goes back and forth between the crowd and and the teachers of the law slash Pharisees uh that he's interacting with. And he's just had a conversation where he, in our last episode, we looked at uh John 10, those first verses, about him being the sheep uh or the the uh shepherd and him being the gate and the way and the his unique dynamic. And as they're wrapping up the conversation after he finishes, the Jews have two responses basically, and that when he says Jews, so this is the common folk, I suppose, um, but Parter's saying hey, he's demon-possessed, he's raving mad, which would be a huge ugly accusation in their culture and others. It's like, wait a minute, he the things he's saying don't sound demon-possessed, and he's doing these amazing things, you know, demons can't open up blind eyes. And then it says in the first part of 22, then came the festival of the dedication of Jerusalem, it was winter. And so we're gonna go ahead and start in verse 22, but there's this through line of the conversation of them grappling with his identity, and a part of them, you're saying something new, so it must be evil and bad. But then others, like, well, wait, what are the facts of the case? And so thinking about, and you can go anywhere with this, Connie, you want, but setting us up for the conversation we're about to have. Um what would you say would be useful to us in thinking?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, so I uh the only thing that's jumping in my mind right now is that this is going to be basically a continuation of the conversation, and yet John tells us that there's this this time jump, as you said, and um it's taking place during the festival uh of dedication or Hanukkah. Um, and then they're gonna ask the Jews are gonna ask Jesus this question about, you know, hey, like be real with us. Are you the Messiah? That's my translation. Be real with us. Uh yo Jesus, be real with us. Um, tell us plainly. And so my mind can't help but think about um one why uh why it's situated, why why John sets up the conversation this way, why there's a continuation in this way. And it makes me think of Hanukkah um and uh and what that represented uh both to the to the people that lived, the Maccabean revolt, and also uh the Jews of Jesus' day. And so um I I don't know if there's anything you want to add about about Hanukkah or about the Maccabees. Um you can do a I can do a just high level, not high level, just a broad, a broad view of it. Um that uh the temple uh in the second century have been defiled. Um and the Maccabees were a family uh during the revolt that that helped save the temple and then rededicated it um and and cleansed it and helped purify it. Um and so it was a really big deal. It was something I held on to, and especially I'm not I I want to do more work actually in um how meaningful uh the Maccabean story is, especially because like one thing we talk about a lot is the size is a lot of times like the silence between you know the last um the last bit of the written old testament and then the new testament, how long that uh intermediate period is. Um but the the Maccabees I know that like is both uh what was a really big deal, and also um like I need I want to do more work around what what God was up to in that because I haven't heard I haven't done a lot of studying that. But basically, yeah, broad view. So that's what's happening here. Um and I believe at the time there were like thoughts of like or claims that the Maccabees uh were possibly Messiah type figures, maybe not, I I'm not 100% sure on that. Any any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Yeah, so you have a much better working knowledge of that. I was raised in a space where you didn't have internet, and so you only study the stuff they told you to study, and we didn't study the silence, and the mac and Maccabees, you know, they that was in the devil's Bible. So exactly right, exactly right. So so I think that is rich, and I think the value of it, specifically what we're talking about today, is what is on the people's minds. Because I do think it's important to note that this first part, you are not this is all Jewish people, and so uh the way I say that, I'm not suggesting every Jewish person at the time was honest, but the assumption when Pharisees are there is there is an agenda underneath we've got to keep our power, and this is a threat to our power. And they weren't the the Pharisees weren't idiots, these were very spiritually um focused and dedicated, you know, of followers of God. There was reality that if a Messiah, or specifically to that point, if a king, another Caesar type rose up, it could throw the whole country into upheaval and get a lot of Jewish people killed. Now, I'm not exonerating the Pharisees and the teacher of the law from what they did. I am saying there's a rationale. This is not what's happening here, though. These are Jewish people looking, and I love that picture of when this festival came up, that they were, and I and I like that the New Testament honors it. I uh like is maybe not the right word. It's interesting to me that the New Testament honors this and names it, you know, hey, Hanukkah, uh this happening. And so I think that's interesting, but yeah, if I I think there there's that point that's important to recognize they're not necessarily here because they're trying to trap Jesus. Yeah, they really want to know.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Well, and I think there's a uh we'll read here that they say, you know, I guess this is John's amalgamation of what the collective voice is, is how long will you keep us in suspense, and then if you are the Messiah, tell us plainly. And like I think there's a sense in which, like, man, to give them dignity, like, man, I feel that all the time with God. Like, like I I feel like I want, like, many times I have both either out loud or in my head, cry out to God, like, stop messing around, like make yourself clear, like show me. Yeah, um, and so this instinct, man, I I want to say, like, and again, maybe we can say we've seen all these conversations, like, well, he has, he's been clear, or whatever. But like the language they want to hear from Jesus is not the language he wants to give them. But at the same time, oftentimes the language that I want to hear from God is not the language that he wants to give me. And so it's like I see myself in this so much because like I can ask God for something or want something, and he can give me a response, and then I'm just left more confused or more frustrated because it's not in the direct way that I want to be talked to or I want to be seen. And so, like, I I want to give them all the dignity of the world here.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, you know, one of my working mantras is watch for the weird. Uh, I do think it works, and it and I do think uh works is not the right word, but I think it's a one of the functional ways to walk with God's spirit simultaneously. Me receiving the weird, huh? Wonder why God did that, doesn't usually clarify the situation, doesn't usually answer my question. It just keeps me in the game. It's like, oh yeah, God maybe signaling here, I need to pay attention. And I think that's the same. Also, flipping it, you know, that gives the Jews dignity, and I I think that's very accurate. For Jesus, if you ever walked on eggshells, especially with religious people, Jesus gets you, you know. And um, I mean, they just talked about he's demon possessed. It's a it's gonna go ugly. This conversation will go ugly, or at least be in the edges going ugly. And I I just I like to see the humanity of Jesus in that is that idea that man, this would be hard to have these conversations over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Well, I found myself, and maybe I'll cut this part out, but I found myself in situations where it's like somebody wants uh somebody's asked me a question about something, and it's like, man, I feel like I'm giving you the answer. Like, I feel like I'm telling you in the truest way I possibly can tell you. Like with my firing story, like a lot of the uh a lot of the conversation, you know, the small conversations that happened was like we it would end up in hindsight, and again, I'm not Jesus, so I wasn't speaking perfectly or you know, without sin, but like it's like man, I like you're hearing me say something that I'm I'm just not saying, and you want to hear word, you want to hear these direct words, you want to hear these uh specific things said, and I'm like, I'm giving you what I can. And I do, I, I do, I do wonder if there's a little bit in that in Jesus and just how we all communicate, of like part of what the people want here is completely understandable, but it's also like if you're not willing to hear somebody out in how in their choice of how they're communicating to you, if you're not willing to try to seek and find and like really understand, um, then like you're gonna miss out ultimately on them. Because like, is Jesus the Messiah? The answer is yes, Jesus is the Messiah. But is he the Messiah in the ways that the Jews are are are asking? Yeah, he's not the Messiah that they're asking for. Um, and so like is it just one of those reminders that uh communication is really hard and uh and also the answer to their question, um the answer to their question, and this is this goes back similar to what we talked about when with Jesus lying when he talked about whether he was gonna go up to Jerusalem. Where it's like, I mean, if Jesus were to say, you know, uh no here, that wouldn't that wouldn't be true because he is a messiah, but he's not the messiah they're looking for, um, or the messiah they want. And so I think that's just important to keep in front of us.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

I I love that. I could go on and on, but let's read the text. Uh beginning in verse 22, then came the festival of dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly. Jesus answered, I did tell you. But you do not believe. The works I do in my father's name testify about me. But you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. My father, who's given them to me, is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of my father's hand. I and the father are one. I hate pausing here because it's it's like it's all one. But I want to go ahead and stop for the purpose of time and just as we do, just kind of visit uh what amazes what a plex or what perplexes us about this. And so, Connor, you may begin. In what we read, what amazes you about this?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah, so that initial part in 25, she says, I did tell you, but you do not believe the works I do in my father's name testify testify about me. And I think about uh in 21, the part we didn't read uh that you touched on, can a demon where it says, Can a demon open the eyes of the blind? And that's that's the Jewish collective, according to John speaking. Um and and I think I I'm just really I'm amazed right now about like Jesus is is trying to reason um on their level, he is trying to engage. This is not sometimes you can read Jesus or you can read anybody in general, and you're like, man, is he like are these people like uh stage characters where like uh Jesus is just using people to get his point across, or Jesus needs an object lesson, or Jesus needs a foil to you know stake his cli stake his case. And I and I really don't think that I think Jesus is directly speaking to like he he's engaging in the conversation, he is not simply uh it's not a one-sided because sometimes you can read Jesus where there seems to be these non-sequitors or the these grand uh points or illustrations he's making, and uh because he speaks in that way, and it's not yes, no, sometimes on Tuesday, like it's not like he's not answering at like a Senate committee or whatever. He he is uh that like it it's easy for me to think like, well, some of that Jesus is like maybe not as direct, but like in this in this place, I feel like Jesus would be like, No, no, no, you some of you even heard, like some of you even reasoned out like that I have good fruit. And like I'm telling, like that good fruit, like yes, that instinct you had, some of you had um about me, about my fruit being good, and like that's gotta be something good. I'm telling you, yes, yes, like you are correct in that. And so um for me, it's a good time, it's a good place to stop because like it's easy for me to like read Jesus sometimes as like the mystical floating above it all, like he's got these grand points he's making, and he does have grand points, and he will float above them all eventually. Um and yet, like his conversation and his and his uh his rhetoric and his uh teaching is grounded not just in the truth, but in relation to to the people that he is engaging with.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, yeah. That weaving of is it an object lesson for me thousands years later? Which that statement we make it so casually of it's like, can you imagine doing anything and then assuming they're gonna be talking about this thousands of years from now? It's like it's scared when somebody brings up like a podcast episode from six months ago. Like, I don't know what that guy was. Remember when you said like no, I don't, yeah, exactly. I I don't and I deny it. Um, but it's like it's so crazy, so it's just more amazement. But yeah, I totally connect with that idea that he is he is weaving together these real life interactions and he loves deeply the people in front of him. Like he's not using them as such. Simultaneously, God is writing through him, and I suppose all the writers, and that that's a whole nother layer of this, John's recording of this and all that, but but yeah, it's just amazing. It really is that he is able to communicate in a way that still resonates with us, that still answers our questions. And I mean, imagine if I'm trying to look at this like I've never read it before, but I've read it a bunch of times before, and it's still speaking to me somehow different. That that stuns me. Yeah. So what amazes you? What amazes me, the sentence, I mean, it's just so amazing. So beautiful. 28. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. And I'm like, if I'm in the like it's a press briefing and I'm like, oh, Jesus, Jesus. He's like, yes. And I'm like, what about me? Like, like I'm a mess and I've got a history, but honestly, I'm more afraid of the potential that I'll derail. You know, I know enough people that really that claimed love for God and were deeply involved in in ministry that their life's imploded and they seem to just get bitter and bitter and bitter. Um, and I don't want to be that person, and I carry a lot of fear that's gonna happen to me. And he's like, no. And he's not saying I can't leave, but he's like, no, no one can snatch you out. You do not need to worry about that. I mean, you need to be mindful of, hey, the this how the devil tints me and how he could lead me away. But you do not have to be afraid that you will just get snatched and taken away. You were saved. So much comfort, so much comfort that I I feel like I wasn't taught the first few decades of my life. And um, and he's so clear here.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I think I might take a step out of the normal amaze and perplex kind of rhythm we go in and bring in maybe an outside question, necessarily directly to this text, but I think it's just it I think it really helps. Um, and not that this is the proof text that most people use for this, but I interview interviewed for a job one time at a church where uh like the core defining question they wanted me to affirm was whether I believed in once saved, always saved. And so this is like a big issue. And uh the question I think is both an important question and also sometimes like the wrong question, um, as it pertains to just living. Um I have thoughts around like this specific passage and how it relates to like our salvation, how how sure we can be in it. But like I just want to ask you what your thoughts are, specifically in in relationship to this passage, what you think like what are your thoughts around around that issue?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Uh several. Uh great question. Number one, I give them eternal life, they don't earn eternal life. Yep. Um it and it's related in the context. These are the people that know my voice, and they they want, there's that desire. I talk about it. Do you have the want to? You know, um, and then you know, they shall never perish, no one will snatch them out of my hand. And I think the language here, and there may be more, like you said, there may be other passages that make this more challenging. This one is more clarifying in the sense that he doesn't say you can't leave, he said you won't be snatched. Um, that idea of that's the picture of being taken away against your will, you know, this kind of thing. Um, I I think in general, you know, I I think the variety of ways that people look at this, it's like, wait a minute, you know, well, what about the person that so my my basic thing would be hey, if you want God and you want God, and no matter what you do, you're when you come up for air, you want God, I think you're still saved. You know? Um, and I base that on the fact that, and David's life is the one that screams the most because David is, I mean, nearly worshipped, you know, in the New Testament. I mean, it's a weird, honestly, the presentation. This is a case I I feel like I've made before many times, but it's like the fact that he's there all, oh, son of David, son of David, son of David to Jesus. I'm like, why are you honoring that guy? You know, and then God, not David, says, Oh no, this is a man after God's own heart. And you're like, Well, you mean the guy that murdered, the guy that was a bad parent, all these things, this laundry list of things that I'm like, well, I'm better than that, you know, and I'm I'm like, so why is it recorded? Why all this dirty stuff? And then why is he so honored? And I'm like, this is a picture of the person that won't let go of God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And I even wonder, it's a it's a picture of uh it's also the opposite side picture of a person that God won't let let go of. I think I brought up on the podcast how like I've read some things recently. Um that's there are some people that argue the better translation of a man after God's own heart would be um a heart who got who who God is after, or something along those lines where it's much more about God's uh feelings and actions towards David than than and and then in reverse. Um and yeah, I think that picture uh of both like the coming up for air metaphor, I think, is is really good because I think it's something we can all um most of us can relate to, whether we had a habitual sin or we messed up or you know, we had a bad moment, we snapped or yelled at our kids or family or we acted in a bad way where we come up and realize like, oh yeah, like there was sin, there was failure. I turned away from God. Um and even in the desire of like the shame or the guilt that you might feel in those moments of of acknowledging it isn't an action of of turning back towards God. Um and so yeah, I think I think that's that's that's really helpful in clarifying for me. Um I think the way it's really hard to communicate this is it's like that that's really good and it speaks to me, but it feels mushy, right? Like it feels kind of it feels kind of mushy because like, well, what happens, you know, Jason, your follower Jesus all your days. Like the question that most people are gonna ask, Jason is a follower of Jesus all of his days. He has some sins he doesn't, you know, are bad or wrong or messed up, but then you know, he really he really starts drowning in his sin, and before he can come up for air, he's he's gone. You know, what like how do we deal with that? And like again, I think both you and I have answers for that. Um, but what I'm getting at is I think this is one of those things where um I think there are definitive answers and ways of thinking about it. Um, but how it plays out in real life is just really mushy and it's really nuanced. Um, and it's just it's messy.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

There's no there the clean, there is no clean lines, it feels like I I think so, and I think it reflects exactly what you said earlier. Even if you're sitting right next to Jesus and you're like, Jesus, am I saved? I think you would come away from that conversation and be like, Yeah, he said I'm saved. And then you said like four more sentences that I'm going to be processing for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Um, just because of the depth that's there. I I think for me, so how do I maintain my sanity in a world where I may go off the deep end, you know? And I'm like, okay, number one, I have not had any big consequences for my sin yet. You know, I I've managed to either hide it uh or um you know keep it uh within that that uh relationship, the nature of our relationship, where it's like, man, I like first John teaches, you know, I confessed it, God is cleaning it. You know, I try to live really open with God. Oh man, what I just did, what I'm doing right now is sin. Will you help me to figure this out, this kind of thing? So I haven't had seasons in the last 20-something years where I just really lost my way. But I got maybe 20, 30 more years to live. Please your Lord, maybe 20, 30 more years. But but it but you know, so I've got that. So what can happen? I do think it's interesting the dynamic of God being outside of time and assessing you. This is a you talk about Moshi, your batting average is like you know, I mean, David doesn't die victorious to me. He dies, his kids are fighting, he's with some virgin keeping him warm. I mean, the whole scenario is like, ugh, oh yeah, you know, uncomfortable. And yet God is judging it. Now, I'm not suggesting in that scene he's not choosing God still. But in terms of evidence, it doesn't look good. You know, I mean, our last big thing of from Noah is he's drunk and naked, and then cursing his son for noticing he's drunk and naked, you know, or looking on, and I'm not critiquing Noah, I'm just saying most of these situations don't end on a high note. And so it's like, so what am I together from that? So to protect my own sanity, and I'm I'm saying that as, I'm not saying this is even good theology. I think it is, but but it's that, okay, do I believe, regardless of track record, do I believe in God? You know what I mean? Now, if I'm thinking, generally speaking, do I believe in God? You know, and do I want him? And I'm like, yeah, I do, I do. And do I want to, and that's the operative term there, believe in what he says about me, that I'm saved and that I'm not gonna perish, and that I can't be snatched, you know. And that's me, the one thing he's given us that cannot be taken from us is choice. You know, our families can be taken from us, our beliefs can be changed, all these things. But that choice is there, that free will. And so that to me is where I okay, there's so much unanswered here. And there truly is. Yeah. So what do I do to get through today's a Wednesday? What do I do to get through this day? And I'm like, I'm choosing Jesus. I'm choosing Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah, I think the image it can toggle between very perplexing and and beautiful to me. Um when it becomes beautiful for me is the idea that like, no, I'm I'm God's. And so that means even if I if I'm in the midst of drowning in my sin or whatever it may be, if my heart is angled towards him, if my if my ultimate desire is for him, um there's no amount of uh drowning, there's no amount of pressure, there's no amount of whatever that can stop him from snatching me out of it. Um and so yeah, if if I can't be snatched from his hand, that then that means there's nowhere that he also can't um snatch me out of, which is it is is helpful and beautiful. Um also still a hard thing. So what what perplexes you about this?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Well, I think that's good. I mean to me that that's really I I don't know what I was thinking before you asked that, but I know what I'm thinking now. I think that's for me that's satisfying of yeah, I I think it's really important for us to own that Jesus is super confident in what he's saying. And I don't understand I understand the words he's saying. I don't understand all the application of what he's saying. Furthermore, when I look at you know the people that that God is against, I he always, if he gives any rationale to it, it's look at the choices they made again and again and again that didn't want me. And that's including his people, you know, you look in the prophets, including his people who are sacrificing like he told them to, and going to the temple or whatever they had, tabernacle or whatever, um, like he told them to. So they're doing the right stuff, and he's like, Yeah, you you're gonna be taken into captivity and you're far from me, and my hope for your people is your children's children, because that's when I'm gonna, you know, bring about all these beautiful things. And so I'm like, okay, based on the fullness of scripture, I I believe this is how this functions, you know, the way the relationship functions simultaneously. I I want to always be incredibly humble about God is God's wisdom is not fully um characterized by the Bible. You know, it can't be because it's endless, and the Bible has confines. There's only so many words, so many concepts presented. And so it's it's this idea that he's gonna teach me better than I know now in the future. And this is this is kind of the heartbeat of amaze or perplexed, the very thing we're saying, we want this word that we've read a thousand times to continue to amaze and perplex us based on the fact he says it's living and active. That also means for me to be amazed and perplexed in the future, that means there's something I'm wrong about now, you know, because or else I wouldn't need to be taught. And I and I think that's the that's the essence. And you made the point years ago or seven days ago, who knows? Uh but that idea of God doesn't talk about us as his adult children. We're just his children. And you will eventually talk to you know indigo as your adult child, and that'll be shift in relationship. But God's like, yeah, you're gonna mature, but you're still a child, you know, and I'm like, okay, I'm comfortable with that. Terry Rush used to always say, We're always in kindergarten.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Yeah. And so it's so interesting, is that image too? And then like, and the idea of as I as I try, I just crossed 30 listener. Um, this is the second it's open recording as a 30-year-old. So if you notice some more gravitas, uh more you know, anything to the to the podcast, that that's uh that's that's that's it. That's what you've noticed. Um, but like as I want to think of myself as growing, maturing, which which is ultimately true, I I think oftentimes God wants to like stoop down and like pick me up and be like, hey, just keep being like the little kid, keep being like the little kid. Um this is this is what this is what you gotta be. Um and in the same way, like there can be an unhealthy, certainly an unhealthy view of how uh elderly parents can view their adult children and only can infant not infant, you know what I'm trying to say, can can view them still as as infants or as children and and not give them the dignity and respect of of being adults. Um but at the same time, when I've heard about it being good, there's a certain sense in which um you look at your ch adult children and still see um still see the goodness of of who they were when they were kids, um, and remember that time with deep fondness and um and joy. And honestly, I I I think about now with my daughter being four years old and then I'm having a new one in two months from now, and like recognizing like there's a certain period when I'm 50 or 60 or 70 that like I'm gonna look back at when I'm 30 years old and be like, oh wow, like how incredible, you know what like this will be the time that I really look back on. And I do wonder sometimes if God is gonna look back at me as I try to gain my knowledge and as I try to figure things out. He was like, Hey, I'm proud of you now, Connor. I was also proud of you when you were four or five years old, you know, singing your heart out of EVS, or I was also just proud of you as six years old when you were really proud that you were uh, you know, somebody who had all the old testament books memorized and got to go to Bells at the at that time because that's what they did. Um again, not that God was like more proud of me at that moment when I was six years old, but anyways, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

I I absolutely do. And relating this from so I got with with Joya, my daughter, who's 23. I got with her yesterday, and we had a time, you know, we're at a coffee shop and just sharing, and then she called me this morning with a question. I it it's this interesting thing that I can see two and six and twelve in her, and I can appreciate 20 and 23, and and I can look towards uh even we talked yesterday about okay, so God's teaching you this now. Where is that at 26 and 30 and 42? And and it's it's like I'm stealing a little bit of God's capturing, maybe it's a better word, a little bit of God's perspective on how He looks at us simultaneously. Again, back to this timeless thing. It's it's impossible for me not to think in terms of time, you know. Um, but to kind of take on, not look at it through worldly eyes, if you will, is that idea of, man, the beauty I see. And and maybe I thought when I saw something at two, it was gonna go this direction, but now it's going this other direction, huh? I wonder. And and sometimes I can't see the beauty, like there are decisions that are made that I'm like, oh, I don't like that for you. I don't think that's good for you. And then simultaneously recognize God's still at work. Yeah, you know, and and that beauty, it's like her own life, so I didn't think it was gonna go this way. To be able to see all those things, there is a real beauty, and that doesn't, it doesn't necessitate that I disrespect where she's at now. Like, oh, I remember when you used to crawl up in my lap, and you know, I I I diminish our relationship now because we don't have that part. It's like, wait, that's not how I want my life to be. I don't I don't want to be, well, unless it goes exactly my way, I want to be open to how can God fulfill that same need, the peace, the joy, whatever aspect of the Holy Spirit or the fruit of the Spirit He was bringing, how can I be open to do that a different way now? And and I think that to me, that captures a bit of that God looking at two-year-old Connor, six-year-old Connor and being like, man, I love that. I love that relationship, and I love this relationship. And it's not less, it's not in more, um, but it is different. Like I don't outgrow it and I don't become, it's not stale.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

You know, that's good. I it made me think of okay, God doesn't love two-year-old Connor, six-year-old Connor, 30-year-old Connor, 50-year-old Connor any differently. And like He's not gonna love me more when I'm perfected. And like I don't know if I'd never thought about that, but like that is like that that's a weird thought. Like there, there in my mind, I maybe I just never even approached the subject, but in my mind, if I were to be like, well, man, I love Jason, I love you so much, but if you were perfected, man, I might love you a little bit more. You know, um, and I don't think that would necessarily with my daughter, but like, man, things would be so much easier, and it'd be hard not like you know, if if my daughter didn't have temper tantrums, and if like, you know, uh she didn't uh mess with me and didn't, you know, tell me. All of it. Um part of me, like, obviously, like my feelings, I but like, man, things would be easier or whatever, but to know that like however hard we are on God or how much we grieve him with our sin, there is no extent to which all those things can be reversed or perfected that would change the capacity of his love for us. Um and like I believe that to be true about two-year-old Connor, six-year-old Connor, thirty-year-old Connor, fifty-year-old Connor. Um, but perfected Connor, I don't know if I've ever even begun to think about begun to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

And I think that, and that's the thing. It's like you have a right to. You know, you have a right. The Bible establishes a right to. God himself says through writers, through Jesus, look, you're who I want. Not an ideal version of you, but you're right now who I want. Not denying your sin, but it's the weirdest thing when he's like, Yeah, it's it he it's I've forgotten. It's like the East from the West. Like, I I can't hardly think of myself without immediately thinking about my sin. And he's like, What if I already see you as your ideal self? And that's like, I don't, I don't understand nothing. Like, I I need to just stop. So I don't know, God. Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I have a perplexion. Uh at the last bit of our reading, Jesus says, I and the Father are one, and this is kind of he's ramping up to answering their question of um how long will you keep us in suspense? Tell us plainly. Uh, and he comes back and he goes, like, hey, your perception of uh like one in a way, yes, but actually even more so than you ever possibly imagined, because like the the Jew at the time did not conceive that uh uh the average Jew at the time, in my understanding, did not conceive the Messiah would be uh would be God, would be, you know, um, would be of the same essence of the Father. That that was not m I don't I do not think I think you can see it in the Old Testament. I think we can now we can see the Holy Spirit working in the Old Testament writers and see that. And yet, like I I don't think that was the expectation for the Jew at the time. And so Jesus comes back and he answers it like really profoundly and just like he he he goes even further than uh than the question they ask, and we'll read next week how how they react to that. What's so interesting to me is like Jesus is asked a defining question, and there's really no wiggle room, and it's so fascinating to me how he has this big kind of ramp up to to his yes and that he gives them. And uh it's just really it's really interesting to ponder Jesus this way. Um as somebody like I have not been confronted with Connor, are you saying you're the savior of of your country and of of the universe and and answer plainly, but I have been in situations where it's like, hey, a lot rides on your answer here. Um and so Jesus having like uh this has to be incredibly meaningful for him. Like the immediately preceding words to this have to be something that Jesus has pondered, prayed, and thought about a lot. Um and so like I I am just perplexed and and wondering and trying to imagine the sort of weight that Jesus is feeling in in these answers, especially as he's walking through and then there's the reminder of Hanukkah. I I I just find myself perplexed is the right word, I think, because I just it's hard for me to fathom Jesus it's hard, it's hard to fathom the sort of headspace Jesus would be in, the sort of feelings he would feel, um and also um yeah, it and also how to answer this question truthfully um and um and not have regrets, and not have regrets about it. And I think that's the that's the perplexing part for me um is how powerful the answer is, how Jesus approaches these things to to speak in a way that's true and not have regrets. And so yeah, there's there's a uh uh a mixture of things that are perplexing me, but I think it ultimately comes down to like the headspace that Jesus is in, the immensity for which he's about to the his answer he's about to give, um, and like how he goes about that. And like I want more of that, like always.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, yeah. The the I just to uh maybe approach it a tiny bit different way, they're asking, Are you the Messiah? And he said yes. I mean, I think that's pretty clear, and then he keeps on he's like, I'm not just the Messiah, I am God. And I don't know, uh, and this truly I don't know. Um, did they perceive Messiah as God? I think of him as anointed by God for a purpose of God, sure, but but this is this is bigger than their question.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah, my understanding is is certainly the average you would not have expected that.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, and and then I'm like, can't you leave well enough? I think I would say that to Jesus all the time if I was like his buddy from high school, I'd be like, you know, all you had to do was just heal the lady and not make a big deal out of it. Or all you had to do was just answer the question at hand, you know?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah, all you have to be like, well, you said it, other people have said it, you know. Something like you could leave, or even you could leave with more followers if he just says yes, and then he's got suddenly people who are ready um for another revolt, so another, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Right. They either they make up your mind. Here's the here's the answer.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Here's here's the answer. And and I do think um I'm always uh I've always been really interested in like when somebody gets saved or somebody chooses to follow Jesus, how much and again I think God has immense grace, like immense grace, and I think God is gonna give people the right tools and he's gonna judge them based on where they were when they were. But I'm always fascinated by people who will make a decision to follow Jesus, and like it's either like a rush decision, uh maybe a highly manipulated decision, you know, uh opportunity to make that decision. And I would think here, I've been in many churches, many settings where it's like these people are like they're ready, like, hey, you know, do you believe Jesus is the Messiah? I know many people in churches that were like, hey, do you you believe Jesus Messiah? You're willing to go along with that? It's done. We're good. Hey everyone, let's get the water out. We're we're going forward and we're putting it in our uh annual count for uh for baptisms. Um and I think it I think it's just really interesting to think about um Jesus is not satisfied uh with them only getting a small picture of who he is. Um and ultimately, and again, I'm not I don't want to necessarily equate this to like all new converts now or whatever, but I do wonder um sometimes like you can never fully appreciate early on the immensity of what you're committing to and who God is and who Jesus was for you, just like I can't understand right now, uh 12 years on in following and following Jesus. And hopefully, like I will not, I'll have more capacity to understand 10, 20, 30 years from now. Um but on the other hand, I think about like sometimes would it be more loving to if somebody goes, like, yeah, I know I can believe Jesus Messiah, like really? Like, can you really like do you re do you understand how much that entails? And so um it's not perplexing to me that Jesus takes this route. Um maybe it's convicting or it's directive is the wrong word. I just find it intriguing.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah, I totally see that, and I and I think in general, this idea of, and we mentioned this, I feel like a little bit earlier, but that idea of being if you were right next to Jesus, and I feel like we've said this a bunch over the years, but if you're next to Jesus, life doesn't get clearer. And at the very least, if you're like, Man, I'm with him, he's the Messiah, like you're for him. And then you hear him say, Oh, also, you didn't ask me this, but I'm God. Yeah, I am equal to God. It's like, yeah, we didn't ask you that.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

And and their response, and that you talk about a perplexing piece. We're about to enter one of the more perplexing pieces for me in the Bible in this next session, and I'm making commitment. I'm not gonna go study it beforehand, I'm gonna be in my full confused state next episode. But it is that idea, it's like you are just setting yourself up for so much unnecessary trouble.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

And I think if he was right here today, I'd feel the same way.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

That's so good. I just want to I I we can leave it at here. I you after you spoke there, I had even further perplexion. Jesus, for whatever reason, is not satisfied with a yes, I am the Messiah and whatever it comes from these people. Jesus is also at the same time more than okay with the disciples not fully understanding him and getting what it means throughout his life. And it's like, okay, like I got some ideas and I got some thoughts, like always. And yet it's like, if I'm those guys, I'm like in my mind, it might be like, Well, you gave more grace to Peter, you know, because then you gave to us. You didn't give like, and so like, uh, or or it's like, well, if you told Peter early on, like, hey, come be Fisher's man, also just a heads up, uh, you know, like Yahweh, I so there's this whole deal where it's like, okay, there's a spirit, you you saw him hover, you'll you'll see him hover at some point. Uh him, me, got f all this all the same, but not, and you know, like there's a sense here in which like I I do wonder like if the the the Jews hearing this, um and again, like I trust God, I trust Jesus. Like I as ever you kind of you got to to to work through this. Um and and yet I'm so like man, I feel like if you'd given this much to Peter this early, he would not have he would not have handled it well.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah. I I I think that it's always true that if and you know this, if you love somebody, you recognize if you give them more than they can handle, even if it's useful things, it will become unloving. And I I think he's really, really good at giving them stuff, and I think they're really, really like me in receiving that stuff, that they receive a piecemeal, they don't understand, and I mean, as we go through this, you know, the the gospels, and I'm sure if you've read the gospel before, you've you've seen this listener, but it but it's that idea, it's that they show signs all the time of not getting what Jesus is saying by they, I mean the 12 disciples, uh, show signs over and over again up until the time he ascends. And that part right there, I hope that encourages you. I hope it does. That he's not about, well, once you understand, then I'll love you.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah. Once you understand, then you'll be unsnatchable. Once you understand, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That that is as a good reminder that uh I can also say that about me. It's not about once I understand, it's not about once I have it all figured out, then then I then I can't be scat snatched. Yeah, whatever from God's sake. Right now, right now. Um, I am unsnatchable. Um, and uh tune in next week as we launch our spin off podcast, the un the unsnatchables. Uh unsnatchables. Great grace, peace, and love.