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Amazed and Perplexed
The God revealed in Scripture is more astounding than we could ever dream and more peculiar than we could ever imagine. Amazed and Perplexed is a podcast that engages the Bible earnestly and reverently as we grapple with that reality. In every episode, we strive to honor and give dignity to God and to the men and women of Scripture. Amazed and Perplexed is hosted by longtime friends Jason Thornton and Connor Bryant.
Amazed and Perplexed
Demanding a Sign(Matthew 16:1-4)
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𝐃𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚 𝐒𝐢𝐠𝐧(𝐌𝐚𝐭𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐰 𝟏𝟔:𝟏-𝟒)
Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen
Hello, my name is Connor, and I'm Jason, and you are listening to the Amazed and Perplex Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Well, we want to welcome you back. Uh we are in Matthew 16 today, and Jesus has just fed a crowd of 4,000. This is his second uh mass feeding experiences, uh, one of two at my count that uh shows up in the gospels. And they've traveled on to another place, they were outside of a city, remember? Because they were far away, that's why they needed to provide food. Um, and that's an interesting thing, too. He only provided it in really like desperate times, which is interesting. Um, but anyway, but now they've they've gone into a city, and when they get to a city, they interact with the Pharisees and Sadducees. I I do want to point out when I run across those kind of details in the Bible, I'm just owning, by and large, don't care. You know what I mean? Like he's talking to Bill or he's talking to a Pharisee, okay, you know. Um, and one of the things that our most recent this process we're of going through the gospels or or more specifically following the life of Christ, um, is that we've tried to take in all the people in the room and this kind of thing. And so it makes me curious what the implications like. Why would they even tell us? Why not just say some people ask Jesus? And I I personally believe every word in the Bible was placed there on purpose, and in particular, the gospels, like there's meaning, deeper meaning to so much of it. And so I don't know if you have anything on that. We didn't, I didn't ask you beforehand, but uh, but I do want to point out it's an interesting contextual dynamic that all of this conversation that we're gonna look at today, uh, down through verse four, uh, is in that context of him answering them. But in general, anything you'd want to point out to us, Connor?
SPEAKER_01I wonder if you could you could label the um the aligning of the Pharisees and Sadducees together as like as a sign of the times, like at the very act of the questioning of these two um I don't know if hostile is the right word, but certainly um contentious groups uh coming together to be against Jesus uh in in a way, and again, there's uh maybe we'll get into specifically when they're asking for a sign or when Jesus talks about signs, what what he's thinking, what they're thinking. But I I I do even wonder just setting this up um if there is a thought towards um they these people who have contentious religious beliefs against each other are now um willing to partner together to go against Jesus um and what that says about the current moment and and who Jesus is and and uh what place they are all at in history, it could be seen as a sign.
SPEAKER_00I I wonder about that. I I think that is interesting. I was I was looking up just right now how many times the term Sadducee even shows up, and it's actually more than I anticipated, I think. Um, but not a ton. It's not a ton. My understanding is they were they were the minor player to the Pharisees.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But but just along that that mindset, um, where where I really think about them is in Luke 20, where they asked Jesus that question about like who will you be married to in heaven, and so uh that's where I think of them. But they don't believe in the resurrection, and Paul will manipulate this in the future. So we're talking, I don't know how many years after this. Uh but I do think you're right, this doesn't show up, and it's a rare thing, and I think that's the main point. And it makes me wonder when I was growing up, my dad uh was a preacher, and when he would go to things like he would go to the Better Business Bureau, which in these smaller towns that was a practice, you know, the ministers were on there, and so as long as it was the Better Business Bureau, he could be there. I but if he was just getting lunch with the pastor at the Baptist Church or the priest at the Catholic Church, there were going to be questions, you know. And nowadays there's still that separation in some communities, but more and more people are not asking those questions as much. And I think a big part of it is because churches are closing, you know. I think a big part of it is because of like sign of the times. It's it's one of those things, the pressure. And I I always I think a lot about this dynamic of do we have a common enemy? Because if we have a common enemy and can identify it, we'll feel more united. But a lot of times I think in in my experience, at least with church culture, and it's an older experience. I know a lot of younger people don't have this experience, and I'm or I hope, I hope they don't, let me say that. But there was a lot of like who your enemy was within the church. Uh it it happened all the time, you know. Well, we don't talk to that family, you know, and usually it had something to do with, or it was the stated reason was, well, doctrinally they believe something wrong. But uh a lot of times it was really just somebody got their feelings hurt kind of thing. Um, but I but I think more and more, it's the same thing with you know, churches used to hire and fire preachers, like they're I mean, it's just the cliche every couple years, and then now they're keeping them a lot more. And I think part of it's a sign of health, and then I think part of it is, man, the times say it's hard to find a preacher. There's not a lot of new preachers relative to how many congregations there are. And so I I think there could be some real merit to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I I absolutely think there is, and it's also I think it's good that you pointed out just the basic reality of being human that it is much easier to unite uh two separate groups of people if they have a common kind of common enemy than if the two separate groups of people have a common ally. Um there's just certain ways that our brain is wired for that to be true and that for that to be the case. While acknowledging that is important, also remembering um that this can so easily infect our mindset when it comes to the church and it comes to being followers of Jesus, that uh it is so so ubiquitous in so many things we do and so appealing um because it offers some temporary safety in a lot of circumstances. Uh and yet this is one of those areas just as much as any personal area that we are always called to die towards. And um the enemy of my enemy is my friend is not something that's compatible with being a follower of Jesus because my enemy is my neighbor who's to be loved, and my enemy enemy, my enemy's enemy is also a neighbor to be loved. Right. Um, and so I think it's just important to keep in in mind that we have these well-worn ways to view the world that are just everywhere, and they can infect how we view the church and how we view like, well, this is just common sense, just the just this is just the way that these things are, but even the things that we assume are just base realities oftentimes are actually not compatible with the gospel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think that's true. And I was thinking, how did we get around that? You know, because that that's probably if you're like, what is the main doctrine of this church? Not main, what are the top ten doctrines? Enemy of my enemies my friend was one of them. But the reason I think we didn't uh make corrections is because we refused to acknowledge it. We're like, well, that's not how we function, sure, even as we function that way.
SPEAKER_01You know, I think this is really is really fascinating, where it's like I have doctrinal differences with some Catholics. Um, and the the the history of like the recent church in my life is like there are times when things are relatively kind of at ease, and it becomes very important to the church at large to differentiate between, well, here's why I'm different than a Catholic, or here's why I'm different than a Baptist or a non-denominational. But uh, in when there's high strife, when um there's a terrorist attack from a Muslim, or there's you know a gaining atheistic movement, then it becomes like, well, it's it's it look it ends up looking a lot like um like an Avengers movie, a team up or whatever of like we're gonna have to settle our differences now as we fight. And again, there's a part of it where I think about the beauty of unity and what the church should be. And what I want to be like our unity with Catholic brothers and sisters or Baptist brothers and sisters, non-denominational, Presbyterian, whatever, our unity with brothers and sisters should not come uh because we found a common enemy, but a common neighbor to be loved. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00That's good. Man, really well said. So I'm gonna jump in into verse one. Now I don't know how much that has to do with anything in this study, but that was fascinating to me. I enjoyed that. So the Pharisees or Matthew
SCRITPURE READING
SPEAKER_0016, the Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, When evening comes, you say, It will be fair weather for the sky is red. And in the morning, today it'll be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast. You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the sign of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. Jesus then left them and went away. Interesting. So this one of those passages that I so I hadn't read this before just now. I mean, I've read it in my life, but not in the last weeks or months. Um and now that I read it, I'm like, huh, what will we talk about today? There are a few passages on my well, we'll see where this goes. So I'm glad to be the first one to ask, hey Connor, what do you find amazing about this interaction?
SPEAKER_01What amazes me, man, Jesus has so many ways of communicating that if you aren't careful, you'll just skip over what he says. So he he ends this kind of mini rant against the Pharisees and Sadducees, but he says, A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. And that it's so funny because you just oh okay, except the sign of Jonah. Well, what does he mean by the sign of Jonah? He means that ultimately he will be he will die for three days, be buried, and then we'll resurrect, we'll we'll come out of the we'll come out of the big fish and and and have life again. And it's like the way he phrases that is so funny to me, but none will be given except possibly the bit the biggest sign you could possibly ever have. Um and again, I don't know, I can't extrapolate all of the intention of what Jesus means by that wordplay there. Um, but I just can't help but but laugh at it and appreciate it. That is fascinating.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and it doesn't show up much in Jesus' words. It makes me wonder is the term sign of Jonah common parlance? Like, has it ever been used by that's a good question. I don't I don't know. We could we could find out very quickly. I mean I mean I know they knew who Jonah was, but but this idea of are you gonna get sign of Jonah because who else is thinking they're gonna be dead and res or you know, thrown into a fish, um, you know, and this to happen again. And so it is interesting. I I wonder with the Pharisees and Sadducees, like the abruptness of the of the interaction, uh, then Jesus left them and went away. I'm like, okay, are these the least tenacious Pharisees and Sadducees? They're like the pacifist Pharisees and Sadducees went. I mean, if they're really looking to test him, this is weak testing in my mind, and maybe it's my ignorance, which I would gladly own, you know. Um, but it is interesting that this just cuts it off for them. So then it makes me wonder are did he give them? I'm assuming Jesus did what was right to love the Pharisees and Sadducees, to give them an invitation to look into things of God, because that's my assumption about every interaction with Jesus. He's inviting, hey, I want you to consider looking into God, and depending on the nature of the conversation, here's the way I want you to think about it. You know, I mean, what kind of God would, for example, expect that you can read the signs of the times? You know, uh, we were talking earlier about what this generation needs and you know, just those general things, like before we started recording, and I'm like, okay, so is this us? And I'll go ahead and put this into my, I don't know if this is perplexing or not, but but it feels that way. It's like, how what am I supposed to do with this? You know, yeah in terms of, and I guess that's it. It's so this will be my perplexion, is are we supposed to be reading the signs of the times? You know, and what does that mean? Does that mean looking into our world today? So I so did I, when I was talking about uh churches uniting more, like in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you know, we have this movement called Unite My City, and there's man, I sat in a room with I don't know, 40 lead pastors, you know. I was the only one that probably was like, I'm a minister, you know, but but uh just a week ago, and we're talking about homelessness and what do we do about it, and I think that's really healthy. There's I always learn something from that. Um so is that a sign of the times that we're that we're observing, hey, here's what's happened to homelessness, or is it more predictive? Um, is it like we need to look around the corner? Okay, so we're embracing AI now. So, what's the church going to look like in 10 years? In this particular case, Jesus is asking them, and I guess that's where this takes me, as I'm just literally thinking or yeah, thinking out loud, is the idea of he's saying this in relationship to them, not believing in who he is, because that's this ongoing conversation of it's it's his identity. And so he's like, you should be paying attention to the things happening around you, and they would lead you to believe that I'm who he says. I think that's a good read. I mean, does that make sense to you?
SPEAKER_01And adding on top of the the the the maybe what they would consider rumors and what we would know to be the reality of of actual miracles, you know, in the signs. Those I think I think signs can also be interpreted uh with with those facts also thrown in there.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. So if he, for example, said, Well, find me a blind guy, and I'll get then that would I'm not suggesting it would have satisfied them fully emotional, but it would have satisfied this question. Yeah. Like, can you show us a sign from heaven?
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think you know, you you would kind of wondered, well, why does why does it stop here? Why is there not more back and forth to this interaction? And it's also it's like I wonder, like in their minds, the Pharisees and Sadducees, if they're like, Oh, we won that, we got that. Because like there are many times where it's like, oh man, I've got to make Jason answer for his belief on a specific issue, or I've got to make Jason bel, you know, answer for an action his church took or whatever. Um, and if in my mind I can construe it to be like, well, you didn't give a direct answer, or his answer was kind of all over the place, or like it wasn't, you know, it wasn't worded with the exact incantation that I require um for my needs, for my society, for my church to feel comfortable. And what I wonder for the Pharisees and Sadducees is like Jesus says this, and for them, are they like, oh, he's a question dodger. He didn't really, you know, like we asked for concrete signs, and then he's throwing up, he's throwing up all these words in in their mind. Are they, and again, we can't read intonation, but like, are they thinking, oh, Jesus panicked now? And what do we, you know, we got him on on the back heel here there? So again, we can't say that for sure. Um, that's a possible reading of of why it stops here. Um, but I I think it's really interesting. I I think that gets to the c to the core of um of kind of what's happening here, where the Pharisees and Sadducees are asking for these signs, and Jesus is telling them, like, like your framework for this, your framework for for how you are doing your life and how you're trying to perceive God is so out of whack and off base that like you just can't even begin. Like, you are so lost right now, um, that I can't speak to you like the way that you're trying to communicate about these things is not the same way that God uh uh needs you to communicate about these things, wants to communicate to you about these things, and so I need to speak about these things in a way that like is of me and not of your man-made um ideals for what the Messiah should be. And I think all the time I go to Jesus with it I go to the Jesus uh I go to Jesus, like the Pharisees decide to Jesus in the story all the time, where um there are signs and there are wonders um that I've seen Jesus perform and experienced. Um, but there are times in my life where those feel distant, they don't feel as real, and I will want to go to Jesus and be like, okay, you know, let's do things like we did before. Let's show me like you did in the past. Um and I think the thing that I always have to keep putting out in front of me, um, that the reason that Jesus performed signs and miracles in the past for me in my life, I don't think is because he was trying to pass the test that I wanted to give him. And I think ultimately that is that's the problem the Pharisees and Sadducees are having here is they are going they think they are the test graders that they give to that they get to give to the Messiah. Um and in their mind, Jesus failed the test here. Um and the truth is I all the time go to God with my test and demand he take it and pass it. And every time I do that, I think I Jesus is gonna speak to me or Jesus is going to work with me in in a similar way. Because if I think that I get to give the God of the universe tests and I get to I get to grade him, um then he's gonna have to communicate to me in a very different way than the way I approached him because we are just not on the same uh plane at that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I and I I've man, my head's gone in a bunch of directions. One thing that pops into my mind though that I think is uh is interesting is you know, when the devil is tempting Jesus and he says, Hey, you know, throw yourself off this high place and the angels will help you, and he quotes a scripture, this kind of thing. It's like, well, um, what what's unreasonable about that? You know what I mean? It it's a sign, it would be a miracle um if you jumped off a high place. You know, now it's not needed, it's totally unnecessary in terms of can't you find some real problem in the world? But you could. And my sense of his rejecting of it is honestly exactly what you're talking about. You know, it's like that's the do not put your Lord the Lord your God to the test feel of things. So then it makes me wonder, you know, when he heals the guy, what's in Mark 2, where he heals the guy lowered down, you know, through the through the roof, and he but he says, hey, your sins are forgiven first. And I've often wondered if the Pharisees or the teacher of the law or whoever were there, again, me kind of, yeah, those fellas, you know, whoever they are, but if they hadn't been there, if everybody had been like, oh, that's wonderful, he forgave him of sins, would he have healed the guy's paralysis? Or would he have said, you guys should come down and carry this guy back to his you know street corner or wherever he's at, you know, because he he literally says, so you'll know I have the power to forgive sins, then I'm gonna physically heal this guy. But if they had been convinced of it, then you know, here we are. And so this is the part is if he, and again, when you're doing it in a crowd, that means so if he's in a crowd and you and I are there, he's thinking about you trusting in him and me trusting in him simultaneously. So that gets more complicated, but it's just one-on-one, then he may take a really hard stance, like a much more um firm way of presenting his love, versus maybe with me, he's like, Man, Jason's gonna need a lot of soft accommodation here, you know, because he's always gonna act out of love. And so it it is fascinating what he's trying to communicate, even to the extent of him knowing, hey, we're gonna let this run. You know, I I know there's gonna be a percentage, if not all these fellas are gonna walk away and be like, yeah, gotcha. And, you know, we we we don't have an example where he couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_01My mind jumps to the rich young ruler and a time where Jesus kind of gives somebody comes to Jesus with like their perfect score that they want to they want to show him that he they vaced the test and they they need that actu l last little bit of extra credit. And Jesus kind of approaches on their level, and that person can't possibly um in their mind uh get the extra credit to to to pass the exam. And I think there, I think there are times, I think there's a lot of wisdom to what you're you're saying here, where uh somebody came to Jesus with their rubric for how things were being done, and Jesus spoke to them as an as an individual and were more than willing to be like, okay, well let's let's let's let's go forward, let's use your um, let's use your headspace, let's use where you're at, and let's work it out. Um and then there are other times where he's not willing to do that, and there's a difference between group setting and an individual setting. And I think that's just it's very instructive because like something we talk about all the time, it'd be so easy to be like, oh, okay, perfect. That means that if we do not have our categories straight when we have a conversation conversation with somebody we disagree with, that uh we can never like we just have to uh I don't want to say Jesus obscuring here, but we have to speak in and riddles and be mystic and um and and not have any be concrete ever. Um and that's not what Jesus is getting across here. But I do think there is some general wisdom when we think about man, how do we love people that are coming to us that we can begin to tell are just uh their the way they view God, the way they view reality is so distant from how we view it and what we believe to be the truth of things. Um and They, if if they think that our what the if they think we're up we're using the same operating system, like I think the Pharisees and the Sadducees, they think that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, we're the leaders. And so whether he, whether we think he's true or real or not, he's going to be using the same operating system as us. He's going to be using the same base of reality or the same um structure and framework that we are. And it can be really instructive, um instructive in a moment to be like to re just to re reject that notion completely. And I don't know, I'm I'm I'm I'm kind of startled by that because I think I struggle with this all the time where I'll have a conversation with somebody. This happen this happened a lot actually at work recently, where I'll have like really good spiritual conversations, and then something will come up and I realize like, oh, I mean, I thought we were kind of coming from like I thought we were like as a kid say vibing. Like I thought, oh man, we're like a lot more connected and unified. And then they'll say something that is so like a hard right turn that is so um distant from what I would consider something of Jesus that I'm like, oh okay, like I can begin to fit in the pieces of of things they said before into what they just espoused. Um and it's really easy for us to assume, um, whether it's a church, it's our modern day culture, that our operating systems are all the same and they're just not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and that is I I really appreciate that. My mind went to uh the centurion, I suppose, where he said, Hey, come heal my servant, you know, and he's like, But don't come. So so it's like on one hand, you're like, so you're letting the and if I'm them, if I'm Jewish, I'm like, so you're letting the Gentile, the unclean guy, dictate your steps, Jesus? And Jesus' like, yeah. You know, and then here it's like they just want to sign. I mean, clearly it's effortless for you, it doesn't take anything from you. Um, and why not give it to them? And and there's a good reason, and I may or may not know it. I mean, I have my suspicions, but I think the application that is so good is don't assume because you think some way that God thinks like you. And I don't know why that seems like, man, that's a really good point. It does seem like a really good point to me. I just made it, but I I don't I know there's a little bit of I don't know, arrogance in there, but but but it's that idea that I realize, oh, I always think God, well, especially when in my younger years, I thought, well, if I'm praying for this to happen, certainly God wants this to happen. And then when stuff didn't happen, especially serious stuff for me personally, I'm like, okay, what does this mean? Either he's just mean, or maybe uh I don't always want the same things as God. And when I say it now, it seems so elementary and so silly, but but I do think, especially when there's tension, here's how we should do this churchy thing, and somebody's like, no, I think we should do it like this. It's like, well, this is God's way, of course. Why? Well, because either we've always done it this way or it's the way I prefer. And I think there's something so healthy about saying, huh, I have this sense of things, and I'm gonna follow that sense because that's what I think God's given me in the past, but I want to be so open to correction if for no other reason I don't want to be like the Pharisees and Sadducees who Jesus just told them a message and there's no evidence that they caught it at all.
SPEAKER_01That is good. Man, I I love you you wrapping in the faith of centurion because I think that that is very is it's very, very helpful. Uh I'm I'm gonna move on to what perplexes me. Um and so this may maybe this was a bad, it's a not a bad reading, but just a modern reading for me that I maybe I missed this just until literally like 20 seconds ago. Um it says the Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. Are they asking for are they asking for a like a meteorological uh a are are they asking for a rainstorm? Are they asking for a tornado? Are they asking from an actual sign from heaven? Because I know for me it's really easy to um because we w it's in our modern day, we want to get away from like, oh, God is just an old man with a white beard in the sky. Um but the way that the the way my understanding, at least the Pharisees and Sadducees and the Jew Jewish people thought of the heavens was um was that it was like the heavens were above, you know, above the above the vault in the sky. Um and so I'm wondering, like, are they asking are they actually asking for a a weather event from Jesus? Oh, that's interesting. I don't I don't know. That's certainly a possibility, and I think it it perplexes me. Well, it just it perplexes me because like I missed that and like I'd have to do some more research if that specifically is what they're what they're asking for. Um and so it perplexes me that I didn't think about that first, but it also perplexes me and intrigues me in a lot of different ways because like if that is true, if they're wanting him to calm us similar to him calming the storm or um him, you know, walking on water, they're wanting some sort of weather-related event for him to show his powers. Um, because that was, you know, so for so many that was a sign of of God moving was these gargantuan um things that they assumed meant that God was was listening or angry or happy or active, and they wanted Jesus to do one of these things. May maybe that's a possibility, maybe it's not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's interesting too. And you know, in the Old Testament, in the law, there are there's multiple times, certainly in the prophets, there's multiple times that pops up where he's like, hey, you notice that nothing's growing? Because you're not pleasing me, like you're not worshiping me. So, what does nothing growing come from? Well, bad weather, no weather, you know. Um, and so it is possible. I have read this many times and never even thought about that. I always assumed it's just a sign from the power of God, basically.
SPEAKER_01It is funny because then he immediately goes on and starts talking when evening comes, you know, and then he's it actually makes more sense. It does make more sense, and it's also one of those w areas where um it's so easy to read the Bible from a uh from a modern perspective that we uh lose sight of what they're trying to communicate here. Um and it is funny. Maybe it is similar, closer to the devil of like, well, cast yourself off. Like, well, Jesus could cause it to rain, Jesus could cause it to light, you know, lightning or storm, or for the clouds to make a really cool uh, you know, animal in the sky. I don't know. You know, Jesus could Jesus could do any number of those things. But in a similar extent, it's like, man, what would it be like if you had uh if you had the Messiah in front of you and you could ask him of something like, well, Jesus, you should you should make the sky out there really cool, or you should you should throw yourself down and have the angels do a sort of sick paragliding move to catch you or whatever. You're like, or or you could ask for like some healing, you know, you could ask for some uh some salvation from some forgiveness. Um and so like if if it is for them, they're like, well, show us a cool weather event, it's like then it becomes even more frivolous of like what what a s what a small um it's a gigantic request, but it shows how um impoverished it would be it would show how impoverished their view of of what the Messiah is trying to do is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that I think that's really interesting. So I'm on the amaze side because I've already shared what pleques me. I I think what's interesting to me is, and this even makes more, not even it does make more sense to me, but it it's more valuable, is I dramatically underappreciate uh how rich Jesus' allegories, metaphors, his illustrations, examples are, and a big piece of it's because I've been raised with them. And so when something is said, you know, I'm like, Well, yeah, yeah, of course we think that. And I'm like, oh, it's only of course, because I've heard this, you know, hundreds of times. But that idea of him, so they're asking for one thing, and I would be all tied up into, well, should I or shouldn't I? And I don't think he's thinking of that. I I think it's immediate, he knows, and then he's using these words, and he's basically saying, Look, you you know how to tell what's happening, you know how to read the world. Like he's even giving him credit, you know, he's not like you're ignorant of all things, he's like, you're smart about some stuff, and he goes, uh, you know how to do this, but you can't interpret what's happening in front of you. Like I am the son of God. And this is interaction with the Pharisees, or at least with some of their members. We're on a dozen interactions now, and so it's like this is mind-blowing to me. And I haven't even touched on a wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign because that's ouch. You know what I mean? It's like they they really, their identity, even with their differences and doctrinal views, their identity is we are not wicked, uh, and we are not adulterous. Like we're the opposite. Like, we are the faithful and we judge the people that are wicked and adulterous. So he there, there's no, and that's the other thing, too. There's no, and they picked up stones to stone him because he called them wicked and adulterous, or none of that. But it's just so amazing how succinct, like just what, three verses basically for him, um, and how um how cutting it is, you know, but also how brilliant he's like, you know things. Why can't you pay attention? And then, and I again I'm just noticing this, even though I just read it a few minutes ago, but but it's like he's saying, Do you understand? Because this is also part of that sign of the times, the people that ask for a sign, and I'm like, okay, what's this say about all these other people that ask for healing and things like that, um, are wicked and adulterous. Um, and none's going to be given it except this, you know. And so then that throws my mind into, okay, so then the other signs are for different purposes. You know, they have to be, or he wouldn't, he would not participate in something wicked and adulterous, you know? And so um, yeah, that amazement brings up just about as many questions and answers to me, but I I do really appreciate how quick he was, how salient he was, even if the audience at the time couldn't appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, I think I think it's a really it's one of those areas where I think this is a muscle that man, the church is going to have to um to exercise. And I think just followers would be well, well suited to exercise, to take on the practice of both um analyzing and thinking through the allegories and metaphors and symbolism that Jesus uses and that they even the the ancient Hebrew writers use because it's just rife in the Old Testament, and also um participating in the creative act of trying to give shape and form in in the form of our own metaphor to these grand mysteries of of what Jesus is touching on. I'm always going to first and foremost want to center the stories and the metaphors that Jesus uses in terms of defining, you know, truth and reality of who God is, but uh not but and I also want to be a part of thinking through um not new ways but expanded ways of giving shape to the mysteries that Jesus is trying to communicate to us. Um there's a quote that's become famous recently, um, and it's not that I I necessarily agree with it completely, although I maybe I do, but it's a quote from uh Barry Taylor, the ACDC road manager, who says, God is the name of the blanket we put over the mystery to give it shape. And one of the things that I am is so enriching for me is when I hear people, even people who don't necessarily believe in Jesus, but they sense and they know that there is something else out there, and they try to give form and shape and try to put words and metaphor and poetry to this, to the feeling that they are big are starting to brush up against. And so often for me, when I encounter those people, when I encounter those stories, those metaphors, those poetries, the the artwork, um, even if they're not in my stream, it so often easily connects back to the metaphors and the stories and the allegory that Jesus has already given us. And so this is one of my personal things. I just think the church will just be so uh would be so blessed um if if we were a people who began to not just assume um that when Jesus tells, like I think it's so easy you talked about, like the story of the prodigal son. Like that's just so easy and basic for us. Um and it's something that we just yeah, it's true, and that's uh that points to the greater realities and greater facts that that Jesus is trying to get across here. But it's like, man, one of the ways that story can become more beautiful for me, beautiful for me, is if I hear other people approaching the truth that Jesus is so well it communicates in that and words it and phrases it in in new or different ways that give me a new angle to appreciate what Jesus has already done for us. And so it's just uh that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this specific passage, but you bringing that up there, it's just got me uh it's something I've been thinking a lot about recently of the richness of of how Jesus communicates is so vast and so beautiful. Um, and one of the ways that I have increased my appreciation and my wonder for how he communicates is by both taking in the best the best that others have to offer in terms of also trying to uh give metaphor and shape to these grand mysteries, um, and also some of the people that stumble and fumble and can't necessarily um give as great of a metaphor or similes or whatever. Um and so that's just something that's been a real blessing for me recently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I I think this is relates. I think I was I'm sorry, I was hearing all your words, I just want to I you can correct me or modify edit this a bit, but um, you know, when when Paul says in Philippians 4, you know, whatever's true, whatever's noble, right, you know, if anything is lovely. So that that there, that's a real that was a really eye-opening scripture when it when it really landed with me in that, you know, so uh high school years, uh yeah, high school, early high school years, I listened to a lot of Van Halen. And this was right when uh Sammy took over. But anyway, um now I I listened to almost exclusively David Lee Roth, uh Van Halen, and then just a few of the albums after after Sammy took over. But there was there was a part of listening to one of his uh solos, not so much like Eruption, but like Cathedral or something, where it just felt transcendent and it felt just beautiful. And and I remember thinking, oh, this wouldn't be accepted in church, not just because I went to an a cappella church, but but it wouldn't be appreciated. It'd be like, well, that's of the world, you know, this is of the world. And there was a clear, I grew up in a really defined this is of the world and this is not. Now the irony was the people that were telling me this is of the world went out and lived in the world, you know, of course, most of their lives, but they were like, this is bad, this is good. And I'm like, well, if the rain falls on the just and the unjust, if if something grows in the unjust person's field, we would call that good. You know, and so if God gives giftedness to all humanity and somebody uses that giftedness to create something beautiful, then it's still beautiful. And this may be so elementary to other people, but for me, it just I it basically what it did, it really raised that sense of, oh, we've separated this all. The church has separated all. Yeah, this is secular, and this like the secular world is yes, saying, Don't bring your God stuff here, but I think it's the church that was like, this is sacred space and this secular space, which translated to a kid's mind of this is where God works, this isn't where God works. And we got to go break in and take God there. Yeah. And then I had actual life experience where I'm like, no, God was already there. I didn't convince this guy by saying, you know, 12 sentences that, oh, there is a God. God was already at work there.
SPEAKER_01I yes, yes. And I I want to add on top of that to try to hone my point even farther. When I was a youth pastor, um selecting movies for like a retreat night was incredibly difficult because it was easier to choose a wife. Yes, 100%, 100% easy, 100% easier. Um, I went with the first one that would have me. Um I'm just kidding. Don't listen, Hannah. I mean, that he had so many possibilities. That is partially true and also just a testament to God's goodness that um, you know, first try would be something.
SPEAKER_00I went with the first one that could control me.
SPEAKER_01That is true. But it was so hard to pick movies because it's like, okay, do I want to pick a Christian a low budget Christian movie that has a message behind it and try to wrap it into something, but the movie sucks because it's a low budget Christian movie. Or do I find a quote unquote secular movie that maybe has a good point in it and then I just have to edit out a few parts that have bad cuss words or whatever and and try to drive the point across. And I think about um like that, that trying to find the perfect movie to encapsulate a message or a theme or an idea was uh it was a big headache trying to do that. Um and yet I think now what what I want what I wish I could go back and do is say, like, hey, I'm gonna show you the Lord of the Rings, and at the end of the Lord of the Rings, um, you have a pretty sure an atheist director interpreting a Catholic, um a Catholic writer who is attempting, well, uh saying he's not writing any allegory towards Christianity, is actually doing it subconsciously. Um and there's there's a scene at the end of of The Return of the King where um the evils evil's been defeated um and Aragorn has been crowned as king, um, and he bows along with all of Gondor to the to the hobbits, um, to the smallest of these. And it's like every time I see that, I tear up. It's beautiful, it's great. Um, and that why I tear up is because it's pointing to a greater truth and a greater reality, and that message is so good. And it's like, oh man, I want people to see that message. And what I what I am the message I'm trying to get across now is like you can also participate in that, right? Like these things have not been frozen and stopped. Like The Return of the King came out what in 2003? And that feeling that I have in that was it was created in 2002 or 2001, whatever. Um, and that ongoing creation, that ongoing ability to give new, to, to add form or shape, to point people back to the grand truths of God is not just something done for or done by artistic people or not just done by people in the past, but it's something that he can invite you into now. And so that that's the finishing part of not just like be a yes, be amazed by the way that Jesus uses story and uses allegory and uses metaphor, um, yes, be amazed by the grand artists of our day and age um and seek to find those stories, but also participate in them because hearing stories is transformative. Uh hearing um hearing truly great metaphors is transformative. But if you ever have this the time where you stumble upon one yourself that begins to like thrum with your inner being, man, for me, that and not just thrum with my inner being, but thrum with my knowledge of who Jesus is, that for me, that's that's the good stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think so. And I think to me, you just described walking with the spirit. Absolutely. You know, it's that idea, which which often is hard to grasp, but I think that's the way you explained that is really good.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I think that the helpful part for this is like um we have a tendency as Christian people to be like, when some if somebody were to describe that to me, I'd be like, oh, it's walking with the spirit. Oh, that's you know, that's I have I I want to uh I want to help people give shape and form to what they're describing. I think that's really good. The thing that I always want to be careful of is um is I don't by my definitions and by my desire to have people um recite my incantation correctly, um, that I uh I I cause them to stumble um in that in in their pursuit or in their in their gaining of of appreciation of of the grander truths. And here's the thing, I st I myself uh have this temptation. Like we all have different areas where it's like, oh, this sounds great or grand, but if I see somebody stepping into a particular area that I have a lot of sensitivity towards, I want to I want to fence them in and box them in into um into what makes me comfortable, into what make makes me uh feel safe so that I know that they're not questioning my thoughts or my ideas or whatever. And I think one of the things that like I want to be like Jesus, right? And I want the way I want to view the world he viewed he views the world. And if I'm being truthful about that, and if I'm being honest about that, then there are lots of times where Jesus is is telling stories, telling parables, defining reality, that if I'm being if I can be truthfully honest with myself, is outside of um outside of the fences that I have placed up in my mind. And so part of the work that I want to do is I don't want to rob the true richness of the story by pretending it fits neatly into my box. And so that's a lot that has nothing to do with what we talked about. This part.
SPEAKER_00I think it has everything to do because I need to fit it to my little, what do you call it? My little fencing pin.
SPEAKER_01Pin, pin, like play pin, uh petting zoo, fence. I don't know. When I when I think about this, I don't know why I always think about the petting zoo at the at the uh Tulsa Zoo. Maybe it's because I'm just at the zoo often. Um little known fact, not little known fact, but listener, you might not know about that about me. I'm a frequenter of of the Tulsa Zoo. Because when you pay for a pass, it's something you can go do with your child without paying any extra money. That's right. And that is the message that Jesus is trying to give Jesus. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Grace, peace, and love.
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