Transfiguration(Matthew 17:1-8)

𝐓𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐬𝐟𝐢𝐠𝐮𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧(𝐌𝐚𝐭𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐰 𝟏𝟕:𝟏-𝟖)

Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, my name is Connor, and I'm Jason, and you're listening to the Maze and Perplex Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hey, um, welcome back. Welcome to the podcast, and we today are spending some time with Jesus, and Jesus has selected a smaller crowd. Uh, we're in Matthew 17, and the title there in most of our English translations are The Transfiguration. And so uh thinking back, uh Jesus had had a conversation if you've tuned into the last episodes or read your Bible in the previous chapters. We were in Mark 8, which is a corollary, which Mark 9 runs right beside Matthew 17. Um, but it is that idea of Jesus had an interaction with his people, and he was like, Who do people say I am? They said you're Jesus, and then and then he says, Hey, I'm gonna be killed, and Peter's like, You're not gonna be killed, and he says, Get behind me, Satan. And then they have the last episode. We're just I I can't remember the specifics, honestly, but just we're discussing that end piece of basically, do you understand where this is going? kind of thing. And now we have this. And one of the things I like about this is the first words here is after six days. Um I do like in kind of framing this, and then I want to hear from you, Connor, what you might what you were thinking about when you're thinking about this text. Um, but he his last uh recorded address to Peter before this sentence. Now Peter's there in the crowd, but his last direct address to Peter was get behind me, Satan. You don't have the you're not speaking of the things of God. And so I do love this. I love for us to keep in mind that's last time, and then you have what's gonna happen in verse one, just to kind of keep in mind, and basically, when I say get behind me Satan to somebody, I would think that'd be almost a relationship ender, especially if I never say anything that harsh. Uh, so that's interesting to me. What what else would be interesting about this context?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, I think there's gonna be uh kind of sides we we skip back and forth between here, which I think is incredibly interesting. W the both personal aspect of it that you touched upon, um, and I think even next week there'll be when he when he's like, hey, you know, don't tell anybody about this. I think uh there's a really interesting personal conversation to be had about that. Um not personal to us, but personal to them and and the relationship between the disciples. But then also um the just thoroughly uh this is gonna sound odd the way I'm gonna say this, uh, Jewishness of this uh of this story and of this passage. Um there this is there's both the personal um like you talked about of of Jesus choosing and selecting these um these men to accompany him. Um but then there's also uh there's also um so many connections back to the old testament. There is the reality that the voice of God is now um that audibly being heard um uh over Jesus. And so so much of what we talked about in the previous week, uh a couple weeks, is Peter not fully understanding what it means when he says that you are the Messiah. Um and this is both God and Jesus are the same um beginning to also reveal uh sh not even just reveal, to show the disciples, um, hey what you think when you say Messiah, there's even more, is even um there's even more than you realize uh before.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's an interesting thing because Peter's the hero of the story when he says you're the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, and he's like, Yeah, that wasn't revealed to you by men, Jesus response, but got him, you know, you got that from God. It's like, wow, wow, he's the head of the class. And like, I don't know how much longer after that, but within a short span of time, it's like, you know, Peter's like, hey, come here, Jesus, and he's talking, and then Jesus turns to the apostles like, and then to Peter, get behind me, Satan. Um, and then he has this long conversation about giving up your life and discipleship and all this. And so it's interesting. Yeah, uh that's what I'm looking for is the timing, the connection, uh, and then all the things you reference the history, the Jewishness of the situation. The Jewishness of the situation. The Jewishness of it all.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

I I think I I think I'm gonna read today and then you can we'll we'll flip things up and we'll let you do first uh we'll let you go first on what amazes you.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Outstanding.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

After six days, oh, by the way, this is Matthew 17. After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them, his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the clouds said, This is my son whom I love, and with him I am well pleased. Listen to him. When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. Get up, he said, Don't be afraid. And then they looked up and they saw no one except Jesus. So, Jason, what amazes you?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Um I think the part where there's a couple things. The transfiguration, I'm asking myself a question, so I'm double dipping, but I'm asking myself a question. What's the difference uh in the Greek between transfigured and transformed? So that'd be something interesting, maybe potentially interesting to know. And it's defined what they're saying because his his clothes shine. I think I am amazed by Peter's resilience. Um I don't know how you would hear there's no record, something had to happen between the six days. You know what I mean? So he says, Get behind me, Satan. Six days passed. You know, it's not like during those times, Jesus like, don't talk to me. Well, maybe he is. I don't know. Is he praying those six days? Is he still doing ministry, you know? Um, but in terms of what's recorded, you have that, then you have this double-down about I'm just saying how I function, a normal conversation. If I say, hey, here's a great thing, we should pray. And then if you answered with number one, get behind me, Satan, you know, and then said to a larger crowd who was not uh who weren't all apostles like me, so I would, and my humanist would think lesser folk, you know. And then you say, Hey, if you're not willing to give up your life, you're gonna lose it, and you're gonna be a disciple, and all these kind of things uh that he said before. I would consider that stinging. And then Jesus singles out Peter, James, and John, and I don't think we've got to the part yet. Have we got to the part where James and John asked be seated beside him? We haven't got there yet, but you know that air has to be there. I I don't know what the feeling was about Peter leaving Andrew behind. Like, did he feel at all guilty? It's just a lot of mixed emotions. But for him, when he sees Moses and Elijah, that's another thing. If you, I don't know, uh pick the greatest whatever, you know, from history that I just think are amazing in a in any category, and they're suddenly alive in front of me. I would think I'd I don't know what my response would be, but I think that's pretty quick thinking on Peter's part to think we need to honor these men. And I see in Peter's heart, to the degree that he can esteem value and significance, to equate Jesus with Moses and Elijah, people that have been lauded his whole entire lifetime by every single person he respects, that is really good. Like, like uh when you're a leader and you do it all the time, like you're paid to do it all the time. One of the biggest things is you're like, man, will somebody else show initiative? And I'm like, I really honor his initiative here. Now, now I get it. It it was short-sighted because of our understanding, but from where he was, I mean, good on you. Good on you not to be, what do they call it now? I hate saying this word, but butthurt. Good on you not not staying with that insult. And and understand, I think Jesus was right in telling Peter, you're thinking not like God right now. You're not thinking like God right now. That's how they do it in English, right? Yeah, you're not thinking it like God right now. You were before when you said I'm the Messiah, but you're not now. Need to clean that up. And then I want you to be able to imagine a world where you would be willing to give up your life so that you could find real life. So that the message wasn't just for Peter, but it was for Peter. And that for him to adjust, I did I don't know. I I find I'm amazed by him there.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, man, I I think that as you were saying that, I was I was trying to kind of run run through the gospels in my mind, and like I really can't think of too many examples where Jesus or where Peter sulks, where like my natural reaction would be to sulk and this sort of thing. I'm like, fine then Jesus. If I'm if I'm so bad, then you know, and obviously I would have more sophisticated language behind that feeling, um, or at least I would pretend like I did. Um and one of the things I I do wonder why is why is Peter special and why is he singled out so often? And like I do wonder if that that characteristic of like, geez, Peter, Peter's gonna keep swinging. There's a there's a famous quote from uh esteemed basketball player like Dion Waiters who said he, you know, he'd rather shoot zero for thirty than uh than two than like two for sixteen, because uh if he shot two for sixteen, that mean that means he quit, you know, that means he uh gave up and he stopped believing in himself. And there's like a little bit of that with Peter, where he's like, Peter's he's gonna get his shots up, you know, he's gonna he's gonna he's he's not gonna pass up an open look. Um and there's a part where like I that is so not me that I I kind of do appreciate that. And I think about what it would feel like. So the exact words that Peter says um when Jesus asks him, Who do people say the Son of Man is? Uh Peter says, Some say John the Baptist. Um I'm sorry, I would skip that. Uh when Jesus says, But what about you? Who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. And then uh jumping back into 17, um the voice of God says, This is my son, whom I love, with him I am well pleased, listen to him. And I think about what it would feel like. Um like there are times where like I feel like something I said like came from God. Like that was not of me, that was good, that was that was fully of God. Um, and I'm like so thrilled that I got to be a part of that. But if I then heard like an audible, like almost echoing of exactly what I had said as like direct confirmation, it's like, man, I I feel like I could feel every every pore of my skin and every hair hair stand on end um at just what that would what that would be like. Um because like if I if you say something to me that's just really life giving, like, man, Jason, I think that was I think that was of God. Like I think that would be meaningful to you. But then if like six days from now, a week from now, there was like direct confirmation from a thundering cloud that is also bright, like which I don't even know what that means, um, that would be that'd be that'll be my side perplexion. Um that was like, no, no, no, Jason, like that that word, that word was directly from me. Like that would be a pretty crazy feeling.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Oh, yeah. That level of affirmation, I hadn't thought about it that way, would be so high. And and it is, I I this is where I acknowledge, man, Peter's a lot different than me. Like his personality, if you were to take an Ennegram or Myersbriggs or whatever, oh, we would we would assess a lot differently. Um, and I like that. I I like knowing that, and I like knowing, oh, and we're also the same. But the difference is I would quit at 16 using the waiter's example of 16 attempts. Um, you know, if I was only hitting two, I would just focus in on, man, I'm gonna be a better passer, better assist, you know, person. Um, but I'm grateful for the people that are like, nope, I'm throwing up 30, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

And part of that's like, that's not your personality. So there would be like there's a there's a hint in which I know we're stretching the basketball metaphor here quite a bit, but it's also like, you know, okay, man, I just don't have tonight. So I I can do other things to help facilitate. Right. Where it's like you could you kind of wonder with Peter if there's a sense of like Peter's Peter's good at a couple things, and he's like, I gotta like, like I I've gotta hit my couple things. Like, you know, I've gotta push forward. And even I'm thinking, uh this just takes us too far afield, but I'm thinking in the book of Acts, like there is even a little bit of that um with Peter where it's like, no, no, no, this is like I I've got my I've got my skill set, and like I'm you know, you guys are uh this I complimented Peter, now I'm coming back to to some criticizing, or maybe even not criticizing, but it's that Kobe Bryant, like you're gonna fit the team around me, you're gonna build the team around me, um, you're gonna clear out and let me go. But maybe maybe I think I I think we I think I stretched that metaphor a little too far.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

I have long wondered, you know, I I've just long wondered if Luke had spent a lot of time with Peter or around Peter, and then all of a sudden when Luke isn't there, does Peter realize, oh, I'm not the main character in this story? Like Paul has taken over, which is neither here nor there, but when when he gets to heaven, is he like, oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

That's an interesting artistic choice. Just the first ten. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

So when I mean you lose eight, but anyway, but yeah, it's a it's fascinating to me. Okay, what amazes you?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, I think this is one of those examples where this just feels the the transfiguration just feels like a clear, like um if you've ever been watching a TV show and then like there's a mid-season finale, and then suddenly the tone shifts, and it's like, oh wait, I thought I was watching a show about this, and actually no, I'm realizing it the show has uh taken a complete maybe not left turn. There were signs before, but okay, this is a whole other angle than we thought before. And I think about this moment um where it's like, okay, what what do what is the Messiah like being a part of the kingdom of God and what the Messiah is doing here on earth? What does it look like? Well, it looks like I see healing, I see restoration, maybe there are gonna be uh slaves who are set free, maybe you know, side toppling of Rome and and Jerusalem, you know, what will that look like? Um, but then to have like the voice of Yahweh, which again we just can't um because of how personal um like the incarnation is and and how much we emphasize it rightfully so, we just it's really hard, I think, for us, especially the circles we swim in, to understand the gravity of what it would be like to hear, you know, to hear Yahweh, to hear the God of Moses and Elijah, um, to both see I Elijah and Moses now in the company of Jesus. Um, and like that is a whole other uh power-up almost of like I'm sure that Peter, I'm sure all the disciples thought that this was a big deal, they gave up their entire lives for it. Um, but to have the cosmic king of the universe um who they have heard of the story of Isaiah in in the throne room, and they've heard um of what it was like to to hear the voice of God and what it did to Isaiah, um, to to to have the they I mean they and they had so much of a better understanding of the old of the old testament than I do. Um all these examples would pop up of of moments where where the voice of God um thundered and then to be like, oh my gosh, like I'm at I am one of these people and I'm hearing it. I just feel like it's such a um there's such a delineation between the before and after that I I'm one, I maybe I'll be perplexed in a week where I'm like, how does that not change everything? Um how does it not shift everything? But right now it's just hitting me as amazement um because it's like this is they Jesus is God, he's fully God, um, and they see parts of it and they don't fully understand it or whatever, but here is like the full um this is God approaching them in the exact way they would expect to, um, and it is utterly completely terrifying. And man, what it would be like, you know, as they begin to understand who Jesus was, that Jesus is God, and so is the voice, and like I can pal around and I can laugh with Jesus, or he can, you know, I can ask him questions, but then also when I hear the voice, I'm terrified. Um, I I just I I am so amazed at what at all that that would mean for the disciples.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I I love that picture, the the mid-season finale dynamic, and the part of this speaks to something that we've said many, many times on Amazon Perplexed. It's the idea of don't think if Jesus was here in the flesh with you that it would all clear up. Don't think if he was in here in the flesh with you, that all of a sudden you'd just be a different person. Because these guys are at, you know, we we've also said, you know, there's a quote that, you know, the Jewish people had trouble seeing Jesus' deity because of his humanity, and we have trouble seeing his humanity because of his deity. You know, we we look at him as God and we're like, well, yeah, God would do that. But then you're like, oh, what's the humanist part here? What what of what he just said was needed for him? You know, which is a whole nother, you know, topic that we go down. Um, but I think I think that idea of we're not suggesting they weren't changed, but are they superior to the other apostles that didn't hear it? There's not a suggestion. James and John are the ones that still ask, can we be in power over all the other apostles and everybody else? You know, their their weaknesses still are there. Peter still denies Jesus three times. You know what I mean? How could you lose that? Yeah, and I think that I I've had mountaintops, which I'm not suggesting are like the Mount of Transfiguration, but it and is that then is that why we call them mountaintops? Because the Mount of Trig, I don't I don't know, but it but anyway, but it's that idea. I've had mountaintops, and yet, uh, I brought I brought all those other parts of me uh with me.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah, it it is so good. I think about the the there's the mountaintop experience that they're having here where they're amazed at what's happening and then they're incredibly afraid, and what it would be like um that Jesus not just says, Hey, don't be afraid, but he actually physically touches them. Um like what how what that would mean for them. And again, I I've not done too much direct study on on this, but like obviously in the old testament, the idea of like God touching you would be deathly would be terrifying, would be would be the end of everything. And then suddenly now the God of the universe, you hear him, and then also the God of the universe is bending down next to you to lift you back up and say, Hey, yeah, get up. And it's like and and it's like that is one of those ones where I want to give them more the disciples more grace. Because like, how do you even have a category for that now? Yeah. Where it's like the God of the universe, the picture in in Isaiah 6, where it's like, you know, his courtroom is so holy and so other than, and his voice is is terrifying, and it and if I actually caught a true glimpse of him, I would die. But then also he's now bending down in the dirt and he's touching me.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

No, I think that that's phenomenal. And even the effect, just take the voice, although everything you said is just so powerful. But his voice, it wasn't just that it was louder. But I can't explain a lot more than that. I mean, I guarantee you if we had an audiologist, somebody that just thinks about it, even like who's the guy that sang the National Pooth? Um, uh you would know him if I said his name. He's Charlie, Charlie Pooth, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, this guy is amazing. I've seen him on various things, you know, TikTok and tonight shows where you can make you can hit a table and he's like, oh, that's a D flat, and you know what I mean? It's just amazing. So, so, but I would love for him to talk about what do you think divine voice would sound like like or shake the ground? Would it affect your internal bio-rhythms in a certain way? You know, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And I think what's happening here, Jason and I had before this had a con had a conversation on altered consciousness, and I do think there's a sense in which like the disciples and Jesus, like they are on the cosmic, they are seeing and experiencing things on the cosmic realm, the deeper realities. I think memorial, you guys refer to it as the upper story, as the higher story. There's a dimension here that is not plainly um available to us with our five senses that they're accessing, um, that they now have an ability to touch into. And I can tell a story of like you talk about the uh the the hearing part of it, of like, man, what is it, what does an angel sound like? What does the voice of God sound like? And I think I've told you this story many times. So last uh like early last fall, late summer, um, a beloved uncle of mine passed away. Um and he he had been sick for a long time. He got a lot more time than actually we thought he would. So it was like it was a it was a good um, like he he died, he died well. That sounds awful, but he died well and he got to meet his last grandson, and so it was like um it was not it was tragic in the way that all death is tragic, but it was like there's a lot that we had to be thankful for. Um and yeah, he was really beloved in my life and he was really meaningful, and he altered the trajectory of my life in many ways. Um and when he had got cancer and we thought he was gonna die two years before that, I had shed a lot of tears, and in the intervening time I had shed tears and uh here and there, and and he had died on a Friday, I believe, I can't remember, and I had not really had a moment to cry. But then on a Sunday morning in church, we were singing the song At the Altar, which I don't know if you have you heard that song, Jason?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Oh, the name of the song at the location.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Have you heard the I don't know that I have it's really good. Uh it's really good. It's called At the Altar. It's basically a song about uh the woman washing Jesus' feet, and um it's it's really, really good. Uh I'd highly recommend to anybody listening. And like I was holding my daughter, we were singing, and I just like I was getting choked up. Um, and like I was trying to sing, I just could not sing, um, could not uh get it. And my daughter, who I love to hear sing, does not have um not yet have my wife's uh singing ability, just quite yet. Um And she was she started singing in my ear. And I can't tell you if she hit every note perfectly, but it sounded it's it in another way, on another wavelength, on a different plane of existence, it sounded perfect. And I can I can I say for 100% certainty that wasn't there there were God uh singing in my ear through my four at the time four-year-old daughter or an angel or I no, I can't say that for sure, but I also want to be of the place of like there was something there was a higher there was a higher story, there was something deeper happening there beyond just um my daughter's vocal cords vibrating in a specific way. I heard something um beyond that.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I would say if your heritage, if you listener, if your heritage causes a struggle with that, um I would encourage uh when you're not grateful for the greater things of God and your free will won't allow it, don't expect to hear it. Uh, you know, and so if you're like I've never experienced that before, I would say start being grateful for God, whatever you have to give me, give it to me, whether I believe it or not, because he's God and his ways are no ways. But I I love that affirmation and understanding. I don't understand it, but you're I I could I think to myself, oh, when have I had moments and I can relate to that? But being there, I I love knowing I don't know what that'd be like to hear the voice of God like that, and to know it'd be beyond all my experience, you know, and and just to be, oh, there's more, you know, that that part of why do we keep going? Well, part of it's because of of hope that we're like there's gonna be more. Yeah, and I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, I just love that, and this is totally going off of our formula, which is you know, our fake producer that we don't have is gonna be so upset with us. Um but I think about the different ways that Peter hears God. So in some way, Peter hears God and is able to communicate in in chapter 16 about the reality of who Jesus is as the Messiah. And then also Peter hears God here, and they're both completely different kinds of hearing, and they happen in the span of what, six, seven, eight days possibly. Right. Um, and man, I I just want to own um that it's so easy to raise up that supernatural moment I had as my daughters like that's that's the way to hear from God, that's the way. Or it's a way, or you know, a few times I've had I felt this thing in the back of my head that moves me to a scripture that I can give to somebody and it just speaks perfectly into their life. I'm like, no, that's that's the way to hear God. And it's like Peter experiences both of these. Peter equally hears from God in 16, and he equally hears from God in 17.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, that's so good. I want to jump quickly into what perplexes me. Uh Luke writes about this too, and Luke includes a data point that I think is really interesting. It's in Luke chapter 9, 30. Luke 9, 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, Exodus, his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. So it's not just that they're there doing a cameo. There is a conversation that Peter and them have. Now, I I don't know how long it lasts, you know, where there's a sense too, if you put all, you know, uh Matthew, Mark, and Luke together around this, you get a more detailed sense of, you know, they are struck and they're blinded, and what happens? And then you have a sense, are they touching eternity? In other words, are Peter, James, and John experiencing a few seconds, but they have a few hours worth of cong conversation in that dynamic, which would be timelessness, you know, and that's a whole nother metaphysical consideration. But I find it interesting, and this is my perplexion, why bring them there? Why bring them there? Why bring them there? Why tell them not to talk about it? That means when they come down the mountain, they're gonna be, including his brother, Peter's brother Andrew, he's not gonna tell him, why do this? Why not? I mean, it to me, I'm like, this is where you call the 5,000 and the Pharisees, and you're just like, look, and I know that I can reason it out in the sense that God doesn't want us to be converted because of the miraculous and the unexplainable. He wants us to be though there's always something unexplainable about being in a relationship with God, but he wants us to be able to take with our autonomy, our free will, and say, here's the message, will I accept him as my savior? Not will I be wowed the rest of my life? Will I be impressed? You know, he Jesus clearly is not about that, or he just would have done something miraculous all the time, including come off the cross and say, Look, I can do it, and then put himself back on. But he humbled himself, and that there's so many implications of that. But I there is that perplexion to me, and it's ongoing, but specific in this case, about he has this incredible conversation. Would we not be blessed here? Moses say, Hey, here's what I learned from the Exodus, and Elijah to say, Hey, here's what I learned from being whisk away, you know, in this fiery chariot kind of thing. And and that it's it's one of those things where God gives this tiny look and we don't get any more. You know, and I'm like, I want more, and I want more for them.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Man, yeah, no, that's it is really good. And that question of why, I think that's that's a great perplexation, and I share, I share it with you. You said something about um, like, is this uh a few seconds? Is it touching into eternity? Um, and I do think, and this is taking maybe a little bit out of our step of of a Mesa Perplex and touching on a little bit more um a little bit more knowledge than trying what we try to do when we come to the text. But I I think there are some direct I think there are a lot of direct parallels between, and again, I I did not know we were gonna be having this conversation about the transfiguration when we talked about altered states of consciousness and and and what we talked about before this um we started recording. Um but you know, one of the questions that that why question of what does it mean leads me to another question of what and why and what is happening um in the life of Jesus, and that's the thief on the cross, where Jesus says, Today you will be with me in paradise, and like what does that mean? Like, what does it mean for somebody to be in paradise? What does it mean for somebody um to be with Jesus in that moment, um, that you know, in paradise? And um we know throughout the scriptures that there are other times where people are in paradise. The Greek word paradise is just it's garden. And if you're talking about the garden and uh and you're Jewish 2,000 years ago, there's really only one garden you're talking about. Um and so what I what I'm just what I'm wondering and what I'm moved by here is I love the idea that this was just a few seconds, like it was just it it was just a few seconds, and then like they come down from the mountain and the disciples are like, Did you guys do anything? Or like, well, you know, I mean uh we know there's a little bit longer than that, but like you know, they come back and they're just completely utterly shocked, like, no, you don't understand. I'm like, yeah, but you were only gone. What could have happened in that amount of time? And I'm just I'm caught up by this idea that like I think like I think there clearly um there is some sort of witnessing um of of the of the higher realms that is happening here. There's some sort of touching in with heaven, and the the jump I want to make is is like I think that real those realities are all around us all the time. Um are maybe not accessible to us in every given moment in every given way, but I but I do think the more we orient our life and allow ourselves to listen to God and to um and to to try to live out his teachings and his calling on our lives, I do think these higher realms become more not accessible to us, but we become better uh we're able to hear better, we're be able we become better listeners, we have better ears to hear. Um and so I don't even know where I was going with that, but like I I'm convinced uh in this moment um that Peter James uh and John are with parado with with Jesus in paradise in this moment. Um and again, what that exactly means, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But there's so many connections here between um uh there's so many connections here, and I think it's really the the the amazing one of the amazing things for me and the really hopeful things is that I think when I heard my daughter sing in my ear when I couldn't and it sounded like an angel or god, I think I was with I think I was in paradise in that moment. I think I was in the garden. I think I was where I was always supposed to be, um, where my soul longed to be. And it's like, okay, well then how do you plot that on a graph or how do you measure that scientifically? Dude, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Right. Yeah, and I think Yeah, I mean, it's just time that constrains me. Uh but it but it is that part, there's so much to talk about there. And and the general thing that I take away from this, we haven't heard your perplexion, but it but is that idea of, or did you I did not, but okay, I I can I can give you a quick one.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Quick one. Uh yeah, so uh when he was still speaking, uh a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, This is my son whom I love, and with him I am well pleased listen to him. Uh just like what is what is a bright cloud? Like, and there's some things in the old testament I could I could touch on of like, okay, is that trying to reference that or or mean that, but like is it a physical light? Um how do how and again this touched on so much of a conversation, how in the world do our finite senses uh sense, like how do they interpret the senses that are being inputted from from God um and what they're seen by? And like I just I have I again I love the idea that like if an outside observer has a telescope from another mountain is looking in and it's just guys sitting around, not moving around, but like they're you know, their eyes are just big and bug-eyed, or like i if somebody had a telescope and was looking at them, was this all observable from far away, or did they have to be there in the moment to see it out? I don't know. So that's my perplexion.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Yeah, no, I get that. It it's funny if you had a billion-dollar budget and you were to make a a good did chosen do this? I don't know, I don't remember. I don't know, I've seen it. Um but a lot of times chosen will underplay things, you know, which I don't have a problem with, but if you if you could I were like saying get as close as you can, you know, to what this would have felt like to be there and you just have deep dive, deep dive, deep dive, it would be it wouldn't just be a voice, you know. This this is consuming, it is um, you know, it is paradise touching earth in a real way.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

It's heavy, it's uh it's heavy, it's um all encompassing. It is the voice has an effect on everything, on everything that it encounters. Um I think if you've ever you've ah sorry, I know you gotta you gotta go, so I'm gonna stop right there.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Well, it's yeah, in a real way, friends, I've got to go meet somebody else. Uh but it but yeah, I mean it's just such a cool here's what I love, and I love so many of our episodes, our time together in general, but it is that idea. I have read and taught the transfiguration dozens, uh, read it probably hundreds of times, been taught it hundreds of times, probably, and yet new life. Like it's like, yeah, I mean, that is the more of it. That is the what do what do you want from God? He can do that, and so much more. Peter, James, and John weren't anticipating this, and honestly, I still have that question. There's another perplexion of why shut this down, you know, at least among your own apostles, and I still don't have good answers for that. And what's this significance? Should you tell everybody about about your experience with indigo and and god and all that? You know, I mean, I think so. You know, I mean, what would be the gain of holding it just to me? You know, and so by a similar, it's like, what's the gain? I don't need to understand, but knowing that that exists there, that man, when you're connected to Jesus, there's always more, it's always more amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

And that's just absolutely grace, peace, and love.