After the Mountaintop(Matthew 17:9-13)

𝐀𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐌𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐚𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐨𝐩(𝐌𝐚𝐭𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐰 𝟏𝟕:𝟗-𝟏𝟑)

Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, my name is Connor, and I'm Jason, and you are listening to the Amaze and Perflex Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

I want to welcome you back and uh share with you that we are in Matthew chapter 17. In the last episode, uh we experienced Jesus' transfiguration, the appearance of Moses and Elijah, and the response from Peter, James, and John. I I think it's still noteworthy to say that in preparation for this, uh, not preparation is not the right word, but right before this, a few days before this, uh Peter says in one moment, hey, you are the son of living God, and Jesus is like, Man, that's from God. And later he's like, You're not gonna experience this death you're talking about, and he's like, Get behind me, Satan. Uh, and so I just want to reinforce um Jesus wasn't against Peter when he said that he was clarifying and say, Hey, where's the message coming from? I wonder if it would serve us as a completely side note uh if somebody periodically would say, Hey, get behind me, Satan, to me. Um, because I'm like, Oh, that's probably not from God. Now, that doesn't tie in necessarily. I am just randomly sharing. But what's happened is uh we're gonna join them again in verse nine. We ended uh in verse eight when it says, When they, Peter, James, and John, looked up and they saw no one except Jesus. Um we felt like nine through thirteen, though, has its own content that we wanted to explore just a bit, and so that is our episode today. So, in preparation for that, uh what what crosses your mind that might be useful for us to be thinking, Connor, about yeah, in just receiving this next part.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

So they're gonna talk about Elijah and eventually gonna kind of settle on a little bit of connection between him and John the Baptist, and um one of the things you read when it kind of becomes clear that we don't really touch on in today's day and age when you read through the gospels, if you just like sit down and read through one of the gospels. Um the way that they are perceiving what God is doing in the world is filtered so much through obviously the Old Testament, um, but also the characters and and not characters, the the people um in the Old Testament, in fact, uh almost looking for um not uh looking for the archetype of a certain of prophets and looking for the repeated patterns of what God did during the Old Testament and how he used specific people, and almost using the language of like uh language of it almost if you're not familiar with Jewish thought, almost sounds like reincarnation. Almost sounds like they're if if you just take the plain translation of some versions, it almost sounds like they're looking for um just the reincarnation of Elijah or Moses or whoever. Um and so that that is it's funny that we don't, it's interesting to me that we don't really talk about that a whole lot. But I do think it's important um I think it's important to put out in front of us um that all of the people and the patterns they are waiting to see repeated in their day and age that they see in the old testament, um, that they are yearning uh for Elijah. Uh they are yearning for all these patterns and God to move again and to and to come and get them. Um and Jesus will make a point here that it's like, hey, you you know, you want you want Elijah, you want the prophets. They were not wanted in their time. It was not it was not pretty in their time. It was not um uh the move that God was doing in that in that period of time was uh maybe not as uh as glorious as as or it was not as uh I'm trying to think of the right word. It was not pres it was not received uh in the same way you assume it'll be received today. And I think there's just one of those things, maybe it's applicable to this text, I mean it is applicable to this text, and I think it's probably more broadly applicable to our time uh as just a good reminder, um, that when we think about revivals of the past um and we think about great moves of God in history, or we think about man, even on a smaller scale, um, maturity that is hard won in people that we know. Um, most of the time, the the maturity that was forged in in the fire of an abusive household growing up uh i is certainly not something that we would go back and have uh if we lived it necessarily have rose-colored views, and yet it was the reality of of how um some beautiful maturity or beautiful growth came from. And so when I think about uh the disciples and the Israelites as a whole thinking about Elijah and thinking about the prophets, I think it's just a good thing to keep in front of us. This is a human instinct that we all have, and Jesus is both uh recognizing that and also being like let's also not pretend that the ha the past didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Right. Yeah. And that that is I I love you setting that up. I hadn't thought about this at all, but that there's a little bit of it's yeah, the good old days, it's a little bit of uh well, think even in terms of when you felt really good about your relationship with God. Man, I wish I could go back to that time. I'm I've even known people that physically return to places in the hopes of recapturing how good it felt. Uh, and I'm not you know criticizing that, I'm just saying I I know of those things like man, when I get back there, I think I'll feel really bit better about it, or when I'm with these people, I'll feel better about it. And I hope in each case they do. But in most cases, it's kind of like you can't go home again, kind of feel, and it's not that you can't physically go to the place, and it's not that it will be a bad experience, but it isn't the same experience.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

And and it is that's interesting to me. I wouldn't have thought about this. Well I'm gonna jump in, I will read uh nine through thirteen. So it says, as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, Don't tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead. The disciples asked him, Why then did the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first? Jesus replied, To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things, but I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. So uh before we get there, I have to think in terms of on the chronological uh line here. Uh John the Baptist is dead by this point for them. Uh he took a brief time, or tried to take a brief time to grieve, uh, but it just washed into everything else. So he hasn't been a primary point of discussion, at least as what's a recorded there here in the Gospels. So so, with all that in mind, what amazes you about this interaction?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, I'm gonna be real. Most of my initial thoughts are all perplexion, but I think I think I can draw an amazement. Um previously, before in last week's reading, um that they have this crazy vision of Jesus, and then they're afraid of him, and then all of a sudden everything's gone, and it's just like only Jesus remains. Um, and there's this feeling of just holiness and grandeur and also like just deep, deep fear. And one of the things I I I am just um I I would love to have the vi I would love to have a have a picture of what the walk down the mountain looked like. I would love to have so much more than we get here. And yet I I I am moved by the fact that um one of the first things that we have recorded here after this uh is after the grandeur of Jesus and after them truly getting a glimpse and after hearing the voice of God. Um the f one of the first things Jesus talks about is suffering, is um is him uh ultimately alluding to the fact that he is also going to have to give up his life. Um and one of the things that I think it it becomes so it can become so uh man, it can become so easy in our in our Christianese like world of like assuming uh assuming that because something happened that oh yeah, that's just completely obvious. Of course it was gonna happen. Um But like my senses, if I was suddenly transported to the throne room of God, or I was I I truly saw and heard God, um that instinct of like, oh my gosh, nothing, nothing could ever could ever tear that voice down, nothing could ever um could compete, nothing could stand in the way, truly stand in the way of that voice, of that will of that person. Um and I feel like you'd be captivated in fear and mesmerized, um, and I feel like you'd become convinced that like we are going to win. There's no if we're on this side, nothing could possibly um stand against us, and that is true. And then for Jesus to be like, but also I am choose I am I will choose to allow, um I will choose to suffer, I will choose to put my um put my path down that road. And I think it's just it's one of those things that is so um I think it's it's really relevant to our day and age to think about. Um a lot of people will rightfully talk about man, God's God, God has one and he will win, and eventually all this will be redeemed, and that's like a beautiful picture. Um but how that process started was Jesus giving up his life, and then man, how we're part of his redemptive process is also recognizing the grandeur and the holiness of the mission of God, um, and then also being like, and yeah, and that means that I get to I get to suffer and I get to have confidence in that suffering.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Yeah, I I think we so easily, so readily evaluate God's work like we do anything else, if X, then Y. You know, if God is good, if the Messiah is coming, if we've already won, then dot dot dot. This should be easier, smoother, better, whatever it is. And we lose, it's like we're discussing when you were setting things up, it's this idealization of the past. You know, hey, we really want Elijah, and I'll tell you, and and I'll go ahead and say this is the thing that amazed me, is and it it's it's yeah, it's in the text, but it's it's mostly my understanding. It's like when they reference Elijah, they're talking about a guy they just saw 30 seconds earlier, uh, a minute earlier. Like, I don't know the span, or do they stay up on the mountain and regain their composure and then start walking down? There's no sense of the timing. He just says they they're terrified, like you mentioned, they're looking away, and everything's so bright. They look, he's like, Hey, get up, and they're like, Where is he? And it's like, let's go. And then he's like, Don't tell anybody what you saw. So it's it's a bit discombobulating. I think it's interesting that's where their minds go, you know. But it but it is that idea. Now they're like, it's it's so human. It's like, I just saw Elijah, and then he says a son of man. It's like, wait, Elijah now has a different thing. It's just like anything. I mean, we we've talked, you know, it's just common sense about if you buy a Honda today, you know, and then you're gonna notice 20 others as Hondas, you know. But how powerful is this that a guy that he shouldn't have seen, I'm still not clear on how he knew him, and unless Jesus said, hey, Elijah and Moses, there were no pictures, you know, of him. Um, maybe he was talking in such a way as obvious. I I it just occurred to me they were speaking Hebrew. Uh do the are these guys Hebrew? Is Peter James and John Hebrew? I mean, they spoke some Hebrew, of course, but is it so up to or or are Moses and Elijah suddenly speaking Greek? Or Aramaic or Aramaic? Yeah, I mean, you know, do they even understand what they're saying when they're discussing the Exodus like Luke tells us they are? So just so much, uh, like you said, so much perplexing here. But that amazing like it's like if we walked in the room and Michael Jordan uh was in the room. I know of Michael Jordan, I watched him, you know, I was a Bulls fan, he went to UNC, you know, I lived in North Carolina at the time, you know. I mean, all these things. And if we walked in, what would be the next thing we talked about as we walk away? Something about Michael Jordan, probably. And it's just funny that they are reacting to what Jesus said there. Yeah. But I'm just amazed at the humanness of we just saw Elijah. That's who the Pharisees keep talking or the teachers keep talking about. I don't know why that is amazing to me so much, but it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

So I'm gonna maybe I'll cut this out because I feel like this might be two sports metaphors or it's two sports analogies uh too much in a row uh in terms of podcasts, because I know we did one last week. But I think about man, if you were like a how old were you in like 95, 96? 25. 25, okay. Um and like do you remember when Michael Jordan announced he was coming back to basketball? Oh, yeah. And like how like it was it was a it was a cultural moment, right? It was crazy. It was like a it was a right, it was a letter that was a press release. It was like I'm back or something like that. Um and even I was born in '95, but like I was young enough, I watched enough basketball when I was little to see remember seeing Michael Jordan on the Wizards and like you know, the aura, and it's just crazy. Like I, you know, Michael Jordan, as somebody who loved basketball and somebody who didn't get to watch him, uh people talked about him as if he was God, as if he was like, you know, he was walking above the mere other mere mortals of basketball. And one of my favorite things, it was a real glass-shattering moment. Um, I didn't know this, but the first year that Michael Jordan came back to the Bulls, he kind of got punked in the playoffs. Yeah. Uh if you go, if you're if you're somebody who consumes basketball content a lot or even historical documentary, like documentaries about the 90s, uh, it's conspicuously uh left out that the Bulls got absolutely punked by uh the magic that year. Right. And that Michael Jordan is first year back. Um and again, there's lots of reasons that he was still of one of the two best basketball players of all time. So it's like I'm not pulling anything away from him. Um and yet, like if when I've heard the story told of, oh, Michael Jordan comes back, and then he wins three straight in a row, and you're like, oh, it's incredible, it's amazing. And you never nobody really likes to think about the fact that oh he there's a there's a young Shaq that ate his lunch.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Um, and and yet that was true. And I think about like when Peter, James, and John see Moses and they see Elijah, like, and they see that like, oh my gosh, Jesus is is is with them and but there's a voice of God and there's all this other stuff, do they even forget how like Elijah was treated in his time? Like are like like do they have the thing to like in their mind are they just like uh is it like just like oh well after the fact it's d is it all just wash over them? Um if Jesus doesn't say this, do they even for do they even remember um because it's so easy with our heroes to uh overlook and to um and to it's so easy to overlook and to pretend um and to wash over all the ugly parts um and even the ugly parts that we participate in. And so yeah, I I I'd be utterly fascinated to to to to think like in their mind's eye when they're walking down the mountain, they're thinking about this, like and they're thinking, oh my gosh, Jesus, Moses, Elijah, the voice of Yahweh. What oh my this my son who I oh don't be afraid, this is crazy. Like, I just think naturally your mind is not gonna be like, oh yeah, and some things didn't work out. Things were kind of ugly at different points. And obviously things are great for Elijah now. There's I don't know, I don't know what this looks like. That's another perplexion we didn't talk about last week. It's like, okay, it's now Elijah's suddenly on the mountaintop, and it's like, but he's also not been on earth for a long time. What does that look like? What is it? How do what do we do with that as Christians as followers of Jesus? But also it's like, what do you do with that if you're Peter, James, or John? Um, and you're like, okay, things are good for Elijah. Obviously, things are good for for Elijah now, but they weren't always.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Yeah, absolutely. And that that makes me think, you know, we we talk a lot about when it's people we loved, can they hear us now? And sometimes, especially around funerals, people like, oh, they can see you, they'd be so proud of you, this kind of thing, you know. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying that's what what is said. I'm also not saying it's right, I don't know. But if they can, do you think Moses and Elijah, like they do they have enough of their humanity to think, so what was said after he left? You know what I mean? And Moses is like, oh, they didn't ask about me at all. Um but it but it what the that's probably and I I'm just gonna jump really quickly into what perplexes me. Um this is such a life-changing moment. This is such a life-changing moment. I I just have to think if I was there, and and I'm trying to put myself in a Jewish mindset that these are the heroes, if they had trading cards, if they had statues, these guys would be on them. Uh you know, I mean, the these are the people, the lawgiver, the representation of all the prophets is right there. This has to change everything. And the first thing they're told, other than get up, is don't tell anybody. You know, it's also interesting to me that Jesus isn't necessarily trying to make a spiritual point here. It's a it's a point of order, it's a point of uh administration. Hey, I I want to control how quickly this news leaks out, and I don't want it to be told until after my resurrection. Now, of course, they are still clueless. They know he's told them that's why get behind me. Satan came up. He's told them he's gonna die, he's told him he's gonna suffer, he's told him he's they're gonna raise. They still don't understand it. Even at his ascension, they still don't get it. So they don't get it now for sure. But it's that idea, it's funny to me, he brings with this point of order, which is like so anticlimatic, you know. I mean, like, hey brother, store these things in your heart. This is beautiful, you've had an experience unlike any other. No, it's like, hey, don't tell nobody until something happens and you have no clue. Is that 20 years away? Is it six minutes away? You know, the whole thing. I I don't know. It just it's it's totally weird. Like, if you if I was a storyteller and I came to this point, I would think, oh, this is the literal mountaintop. This is the time. This distinguishes Jesus from everyone else on earth that Moses and Elijah show up and say, Hey, and you have witnesses. And then his first thing is to shut it down, and then their question goes here, which to me seems like, what? It's it's almost like if you've ever been talking to somebody and you mentioned bananas, and also the next stories about bananas, it's like this isn't significant, it's just the word bananas is in your head, and your brain went there. It's kind of like this Elijah. Hey, I saw Elijah, hey, have a question about Elijah. And I'm not saying there's no spiritual implication. There is. I'm just thinking purely of the human element of how conversation develops, and how if I saw something amazing and the first order of the guy in charge is hey, don't say anything, I would argue that. I wouldn't be like, hey, tell me about this thing the f the teacher's law share. So it's just a it's a it's a weird development of of conversation to me.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Oh, it it's incredibly odd. It's incredibly weird. One thing that I my mind is is naturally drawn to is I I just think it's so it's so important to to remember. Like I've not had this experience on the mountaintop that Peter James and John have had. But I have had experiences on on the proverbial mountaintop. Um and yet maybe not with my words, but with my actions, um I have come down from the mountain before and then denied Christ like Peter does. Um you know, and I I just think it it's one of those I I think the way that we th if if I was in Peter's mind, um, like I wonder when he denies Jesus. Like, does he have this on his mind? Like he isn't, you know, they haven't shared this, they haven't, you know, told everybody, but is he like, oh, is every what what about you know what about that moment? What what what is that what could that possibly mean? What was what was happening um when I saw that? Or was he was he so afraid that he just forgot? Um but one of the things that I become I don't know convinced by is the right word. But like I wonder I I do feel like Peter m at some point had this moment in his head because like I have with my actions denied Christ before. And it didn't immediately like I I didn't I didn't like immediately renounce Jesus. Like I didn't immediately go like you know, oh I I uh I no longer claim him or I no longer see him or like those experiences weren't real or they didn't happen. Um they did happen and they were real, and then I'm still with my actions denying Jesus. And I and I just I'm so I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that um that this story is here for so many reasons. Um but just for the fact that uh like if if I told you like if tonight you know you the memorial had some crazy winds in it. We record on Wednesday, so everybody shouldn't have told anybody in case anybody was trying to come find us. Now they'll they'll know that now they'll know either my house or her church. Well the sort of switching switching switching locations. Um but like some crazy visions are had and not just like one person has a vision, but like suddenly there are people, like everybody at Memorial's convinced, like and and there's proof there's no gas leak in the church. There's you know, there's yeah, right. Like we saw something. Like we we we saw something. We all we all went to paradise on a Wednesday night, and then you're like, oh my gosh, that's fantastic. Well, if you had an insight into everybody's life the next day, my assumption would be that quite a few of those people would still be sent do some sin tomorrow. Um would still send some. Tomorrow. And it's like God pours this gift out on Peter, James, and John. Um and God is fully aware still of of uh of what is to come and how he's to be rejected. And I just I find it really beautiful and maybe this is one of the things that's uh has happened to me as I've become a parent, where there are times where I realize with the mood of my daughter, I was like, oh, she's gonna disobey me. Like I can see some things ramping up and see see some things where it's like, oh, this is gonna be a problem. And yet I still, before that happens, and again, there's some m things you can do to mitigate and try to help not make that happen, but sometimes there's just a freight train of disobedience coming your way and you can't do anything. But before that happens, I I don't decide to just stop giving gifts to my daughter or lavishing love on her, or I don't, out of awareness that she will really bum me out of from some of our decisions, decide to not um to to to withdraw myself. And I think that's how we think about God. I think we think that God sees our sin coming or sees our failings coming and he withdraws from us like a like a parent that is just so worn out because of the disobedience of his children. Um and it's like I know at some point later today, indigo will do something which will probably yell at me or yell at somebody or do something that's not good and not kind. And yet when I still get home from this recording, I'm still going to pick her up and swing her around and give her a kiss. And I think that's just uh again, I don't know if that necessarily that's not a perplexion at all. And I don't know if that speaks to what you were saying. I just am both emotionally and spiritually moved by that, by that reality. Of all the parties that that that this is happening to, um of all the awareness that that Peter James and John have and that God has. There's so much happening here. Um, and I'm just moved by it.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah, I I think that does uh that's a little bit different slice of it, but it's exactly it's just an implication of what I'm talking about is when we want life-changing moments, I want life-changing moments. This had to be like a life-changing moment. And and two things that are interesting about it to me, number one, they return to sin. Uh in other words, it doesn't change life the way you think it'll change life. Because I think I think there can be this almost addiction to, oh, when's my next mountaintop? Shouldn't it be better than this? Shouldn't there be more pop? You know, and then you notice, oh, God talked to Abraham like every 20 years, most times. You know what I mean? It's like, are you willing to wait another 20 years for that mountaintop? You know, kind of thing. Um so that that return to sin. And then the other thing is, and I was just this just crossed my mind. I'm like, he tells them not to talk about it until after his resurrection. They had to talk about it some, obviously, because it's written down in in three of the gospels. It's amazing to me, though, this is not referenced in the book of Acts, in any of the letters, even in Revelation. I would think this would show up, especially like Peter at Pentecost, to say, hey guys, Elijah and Moses showed up to talk about the Exodus. That's who this guy is. He's the savior of the world. And I I saw it with my own eyes, right? You know, right, James, right John. Never pops up. I think it's fascinating. And so am I to think the ascension, not the ascension, but the resurrection of Jesus was so overwhelming that this this still has value, you know, but it became such a small thing relatively, and and that's the whole thing, is it it's perplexing to me how this doesn't reshape. I cannot imagine meeting with you next week after the situation you told me about, you know, the the imaginary, hey, we're all at memorial and and all these things are happening. I just can't imagine having number one, I'd call you the next day. Yeah, you'll never guess, you know, and I'd I'd want it written down, and I'd want it, and you know, and again, it does make it into the gospels, which meant they told people, you know. Um, but still, it it is that dynamic that it's like, wow, it's so overwhelming, and still, I mean, you can make a lot of cases for we return to our human nature. Uh there is the slight perplexion of why are you not telling people this? Why is Jesus trying to control this information? Which in other situations it does not get controlled, but in this situation it does. I I I guess because of the nature of the relationship, you know, between him and his apostles versus people he's healed and doesn't know well. Um anyway, it's just the whole thing is a bit, I don't have any real answers or takeaway. It's just perplexing.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah, no, that is good. I it is it is it is uh very intriguing that there are many times where he does try to tamp things down, but it there's just so many people that it he can't it he can't control it. Um and yet this seems to be like you would have to imagine one of the main reasons he only takes three is because uh that is a much more uh controllable, it might not be the right word, um, but it's gonna be a lot harder for that to break containment. And you do wonder, it makes me it makes me kind of imagine and wonder like, does Jesus have similar moments with other disciples where he where he goes, Hey, don't ever tell anybody. That's just for you and me, you know. Yeah, like I I don't know, maybe maybe it's not maybe maybe this is a uniquely singular event in the in the life of Jesus. And uh and yet I I I am I am intrigued by that possibility. Um and also you would think like I'm sure there's personal reasons for for why Jesus chooses the three. Um it sounds like there's also possibly some logistics reasons of like, hey, I don't not everybody needs to be up here because there's I just know I just know so-and-so's gonna you know blab about it or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Um everybody goes and starts sacrificing on that mouth.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, and that that becomes the new it there's there's thousands, thousands of reasons. Yeah. Um and yet I I think Jesus is using all these possible reasons. He he is interweaving um all these reasons, and none of them are not all of them are what we would consider necessarily spiritual or necessarily consider um like oh this is what a prophet or this is what a messiah or this is what a pastor would take should should be taking into account when he's making such an important decision. And it's like no, Jesus interweaving both the logistic and the and the interpersonal and the holy, and it's all it's all coming together. And I think that's just uh it's a good reminder for um it's a good reminder for me um that there is as they walk up the mountain, as they experience some something holy, there is a logistic choice that Jesus makes here. Um and I'm sure there's uh there's many, many reasons, but I also I I don't think um I don't think the fact that they're uh that they're attempting to limit it is is is not one of them. So I'll I'll I'll touch on what perplexes me and then we'll we'll get on out of here so if we can prepare for you you can prepare for your Wednesday night um epiphany. Um so I'm I'm uh I'm perplexed I'm perplexed at the disciples' understanding. Jeez has this little riff about like it's not completely clear what he's saying, you know, but I tell you Elijah's already come, they did it, they did not recognize him, but I've done to him everything they wished. Like if you gave me long enough, I didn't have any Bible knowledge, and I'm just reading this all for the first time, it'd be like, okay. And you tell them, hey, this is connected to somebody we've heard about in the story. Like, okay. Who do I think I would get to John the Baptist pretty quickly? But also there's so many times throughout the Gospels where it's like they're like, hey Jesus, can you explain what is uh what does this actually mean? What is this? And then he says, Are you still so dull? Are you not figuring this out? And so it's just interesting to me. You know, I I I sometimes wonder when I read when I read the Gospels, like, does John when I read the Gospels, does John the Baptist not have as big of a presence in my mind as it should? Like, is John the Baptist a bigger presence in the mind of the disciples um than it would be than than it is when I read it? Because I read a story that has the word has the words John the Baptist in it, and I'm like, okay, cool, time to think about John the Baptist.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

But in the same way that like, you know, when you're reading the Bible and you're you know, sp you're you're reading about it and you're thinking about how you're gonna teach about it on Sunday or Wednesday night or whatever, you're going to have specific things in mind and people in mind and experiences, and so are they when they're like is John the Baptist much more at the forefront of their mind than I I I would assume?

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Yeah, I I I love that observation. I feel the exact same way. And I also wonder how does John and Andrew, who were disciples of John the Baptist before they were disciples of Jesus, how do they carry that? You know, it it says nothing about their uh grieving when John the Baptist dies. Like, like it's it's and I think that's part of it. If you don't spend a lot of time in the Gospels, he's just another player. He's just, you know, yes, I understand the significance because of passages like this, but he's not, you know, tell me about the great ones in the New Testament. I don't think about John the Baptist um uh as my top ten, you know, and so it it is it well, maybe my top ten, but not my top five, but he's about number 7.5. Uh but it is that it is that interesting thing about, and this is the humanity of the people. Is John the Baptist going, or is John the Apostle going, John the Baptist, and James and Peter are like, oh, you think? And he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard him teach messages, I and I I've known it all along and haven't said it. Or now I get it, but it would be to me, it'd be unlikely. You know, it'd be like if there's something in your family makeup and you and Hannah and I are sitting around uh talking, you'd be the one to say, Oh, this is how my family makeup, my family of origin family makeup ties in here. It'd be interesting that I came up with it, or or she did, and I and I think uh before you do at least, and so it is that interesting part that it would not surprise me if John the Baptist is the one that's like, or John the Apostle is the one that's like, oh yeah, he's talking about John the Baptist, you know, but still it says they, we don't know, you know. But to your point, it is interesting. Do they carry him much more precious, much more connected to the movement they're part of, or do they perceive, yeah, that was that not a failed effort, but he is dead, you know what I mean? And so you have to have a very strong spiritual point of view or uh messianic understanding, you know. That's why I'm surprised. It feels like they pull this one right out of the hat, and that's why I'm like, oh, is it simply because they said Elijah at the temple and we just saw Elijah? Here's a question about Elijah, or is it a deeper man seeing Elijah makes me think we haven't seen Elijah? Like Elijah, and he's like, No, you have.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

That is interesting, you know. I I do I I don't know if we can know, but I I I am I I kind of think I I kind of am tending to agree with you. I also man, this is this might take us down a uh a hole we don't necessarily have time for, but I I um and I think this is one of those reasons why it's it's so helpful for me when I'm like when I actually am more much more intentional about being in in the Old Testament and being in the Hebrew Bible um to think about like um there's a sense when I read this, when they're like the anticipation and the way they feel about Moses and the way they feel about Elijah. Um, like uh are they because when you read the Old Testament, you just can't help but see the rhythms over and over and over again. Like we talked about how we set it up. Um like are they constantly being like, well, this situation is a little bit more like Jonah, or this situation is a little bit closer to uh, you know, Elijah Moses, or I feel like we're in this this part, and it and um not in a way that like uh somebody would think like oh all of history is a is a wheel and we just keep repeating the same mistake, but like would I like if I we we do this in a way when we think about the different cycles that we see play out in people's lives and the lives of churches or or in history in general, um but would it benefit me to start thinking about it with the same imagination that the is that the Israelites think about, like, oh okay, this is this moment right here, and again, you'll hear people talk about it. Um, you know, you have people have their specific prophets or the old testament, um, but like this is one of those things where like, man, I really wish I really want to know the old and I'll never know the old testament, like a like a like a like a Jew 2,000 years ago. Um, but like man, I want to be shaped and my imagination to be um to be shaped in the same way that it seems like these guys are shaped by it, um, where it is the these questions um of how is God moving, how is it similar to how God's moved in the past, um, and and and trusting and anticipating that He is He is moving Um and that we'll be able to recognize when He's moving because we have these examples Um and I can I have I think sometimes individual churches have language for that, um, especially like evangelical churches will have you know specific language for that. But this is one of those areas where I kind of wonder like more high church who have church calendar stuff, who have more tradition, where they have a leg up on us, where they have m much more common language around these things um than we do in the uh in the Western evangelical world world. That again, that was such a I went down a hole and then I dug 500 feet to the side and then dug down a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

But if you have anything to add to that or anything else to do in a transformation before you sign up, I I do I I think that's fascinating. I I think there is a return to the calendar for a lot of people that weren't raised with the calendar, and I think that's an interesting thing, and I think there's probably a pendulum swing where we go from both culturally and individually, where we go from I need I need some physical things to rituals and things like that, to oh wait, I I need to get away from the rituals because I'm worshiping the rituals, you know. Even in my life experience with baptism or communion, where it's like we're not talking about baptism and communion anymore in terms of connecting with God, we're talking about these rituals and do we do them right and this kind of thing. And and I think in that same way, this idea of connecting to um this happened in this season, or in this season. See, I don't even know the calendar enough to do reference it well, but obviously we're in Lent right now, and you know, so it's season of Lent, and how does that remind you of past seasons of Lent? What did God teach you in there? It's it's similar to the the dynamic of him saying, Hey, I want you to stack stones around this. Well, why? Because I want you to remember and retell and retell and retell and retell that story. So this is the question for me. I think because of fear, we neither anticipate God at work, like to the extent I wonder if God's wanting to do that. Like even saying that's like, well, what if he doesn't? So we don't say anything. And I think there is a part that for my heritage at least, that we don't reference our stories of faith either. We don't bring out, hey, here's what God did. And how do you do that by points of action? Why do you remember more things when you take special trips or when you on your birthdays, you know, these special occasions, or I remember this thing around Christmas, because you're noting it with some ritual there, you know? And so I think we lose a lot of the sense of God being alive because number one, I don't acknowledge it in my life much, and I don't share it with other people, and they don't share it with me. How much would that explode in our lives if we're like, look, let's just not be afraid. How do you see God working? Or what has he done in the past that signals, hey, I wonder what it is? And it is, it's using our imagination, not trusting it's gonna play out just this way, but trusting the God that made it play out that way before, and like however it plays out, he's gonna take care of this. I I think there's something, yeah, really to chew on for me.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

That's that's good. I I appreciate that. Grace, peace, and love.