I do and I Don't(Mark 9:14-29)

𝐈 𝐝𝐨 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐈 𝐃𝐨𝐧'𝐭(𝐌𝐚𝐫𝐤 𝟗:𝟏𝟒-𝟐𝟗)

Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, my name is Connor, and I'm Jason, and you're listening to the Amazed and Perplexed Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

So last time uh we were with you. Uh we were post-transfiguration. Jesus changes in form, and one of those attributes was he shown so brightly, Moses and Elijah show up, uh, and that interaction, and then they're gone, Moses and Elijah are gone, and Jesus has a conversation that we covered last episode. So he, Peter, James, and John are coming down the mountain. And so that sets up this interaction that they are about to have. The remainder of the apostles are at the base of this mountain and they rejoin them. And so I you're gonna what we're gonna run into is the woefully uh underdeveloped medical community that um and psychological community uh and maybe spiritual community that that you're gonna have a demon possession, and these uh other apostles have been working on this for a bit. You know, however long that Jesus has been up on the mountain with Peter, James, and John, it seems like they've been working. And so just anything to kind of set the stage for this that would cross your mind, Connor?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, man, I think I think it it's really helpful to think about it's kind of we have such an underdeveloped uh muscle when it comes to demon possession, you know. There's there's uh I feel like um rightfully so, uh demon possession, spirits, all that good stuff was uh maybe overemphasized in the past, or let's just weirdly emphasize or incorrectly talked about, and it gave off a terrible vibe. And yet, uh man, when you think, when you look through the ministry of Jesus, he does this like a lot. Um and it it's kind of funny when you think about the sheer volume of the things that Jesus does, it takes up a pretty good chunk of his ministry. Um, and so the only thing I'm I'm I'm putting out there simply uh is like this this is a fairly common thing that Jesus does, and it's also an incredibly important part of his ministry, otherwise we wouldn't have as many records of it uh as we do. Um and that's just one of those things I want to own. I do not uh when we think about how we place emphasis on, you know, the different uh things that Jesus emphasizes, this is one of those areas that I am like woefully um I I am not woefully, I am woefully uh impaired in, or I I have uh a probably a incorrect emphasis in my own life and study, um, especially when you try to relate it of like, man, I want to be like Jesus. When I say I want to be like Jesus, very rarely am I like I want to cast out demons. Right. And so, you know, that's just something to put out there.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

That's a good observation. I I would say I'm the same, um, and I'm gonna generalize it by talking about spiritual warfare, but that that you cannot talk spiritual warfare without acknowledging there's demons. Two interesting things to me, number one, is you have it you have a sense of it in the old testament. There are bits and pieces. It's not a nothing nothing, nothing like the New Testament. Yeah, if if you were if you were really thoroughly only trained in the Old Testament and you got to the Gospels, you'd be like, oh my goodness, like there's this explosion of demon possession and demon effect. Uh when you get into Acts, it's lesser, but it's still significant. Uh, I think in Philippi they encounter it, the seven sons of Skeva, uh, or is that Acts 19 encounter it, uh, but it's not dominant. And then you get to the letters, and I'm just scanning my brain, you know, of all the challenges they talk about, and they talk about, you know, giftedness like speaking in tongues, like miraculous giftedness and um and revelations, prophecies, this kind of thing. I can't think of a call to, and when you're casting out demons, here are the instructions. Which my understanding of the letters are uh a representative of God uh writes to a collection of God's people, sometimes a single congregation, sometimes a general grouping of them, and he's talking specifically about the problems they face or the challenges they have, and I find that interesting. And so that's the first thing. Revelation is different because it's all vision, so it's hard to discern what is he asking us to do in our it's a completely different genre. Right, exactly. So, and then I think of my upbringing. So I didn't realize until I was in my 30s that mostly most sermons that I encountered came out of the gospels or the letters. Uh if we dealt with anything in the Old Testament, it was a story here, David and Goliath or Moses crossed the Red Sea. But there was very little of the letters were the where the rubber meets the road mostly. Like most sermons would end up with the letters, hey, do this thing. Then when you talk about Jesus, the dynamic of him being miraculous was immediately like encased in, but that's Jesus. So what can we do? Well, we can do what it says in First Timothy, or we can do what it says in Thessalonians, and and it's not bad teaching. It's incomplete, you know. So it's kind of surprising when you do get to Ephesians and six, and Paul's like, hey, our battle isn't against flesh and blood, and you're like, no, what now? You know, because he's been talking about in Ephesians specifically, you know, racism and and finding unity and difference in doctrine, and then general anger with each other and and problems and just living with other humans. And then he's like, Your battle isn't against flesh and blood, it's against these principalities and the you know what I mean. It's like, oh, I figured we'd have a little bit more education on that. And and that's where it comes out. Paul references it as if, yeah, everybody knows this. Peter's talking about your enemy like a roaring lion, you know. Uh, Paul says in 1 Corinthians or 2nd Corinthians, where he talks about, you know, your enemy masquerades as an angel of light, this kind of thing, but not when you're confronting a person that's demon possessed, you should dot dot dot. So it's it's very interesting trying to figure out what's the expectation of me. And so that's one thing I'm taking into this reading is if I'm one of the disciples here, what is God wanting from me? You know, uh based on so, or your next door neighbor, and you're like, Well, beyond the psychological diagnosis, could there be a demon involved in this? And what's he expect of me? And I'm not suggesting this passage is going to clarify it, but it's an interesting question.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

It is an interesting question, and I think it is helpful to it. This is just a whole other thing to think about when we think about the humanity of what's happening here. Jesus comes on the mountain, there's this crazy experience, and then the Pharisees are now like are making the disciples that are left behind, the the less important, you know, the lesser ones, um answer for Jesus and and for what he he's teaching and and moving and and and challenging them. And so that's just a really funny thing. We don't ever get a we don't get many pictures of like we get pictures of people challenging Jesus and him responding or his disciples being intermixed with that. Um but the disciples uh just kind of being on their own is is a fascinating thing to think about, and then Jesus coming into the situation. There are a few things like that that happen, um, but I'm trying to think back to them like is that a situation where um yeah, some of them are, I guess, where the they're dealing with the Pharisees, um, and then the disciples like bring Jesus in in on the problem. But it's just interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah, it is. And the other piece I would just throw in here is how are Peter, James, and John, hey guys, the most amazing thing ever happened to you just happened. Don't tell anyone, and then they walk into this. I'm gonna jump in now. Uh Matthew, Mark, and Luke talk about this. Mark talks about it significantly longer, so this is a longer reading. Uh but we felt, man, this is really important. Beginning, uh, Mark 9, verse 14, when they came to the other disciples, when Peter, James, and John Jesus came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them. As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him. What are you arguing with them about? he asked. A man in the crowd answered, Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground, he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. I ask your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not. You unbelieving generation, Jesus replied, How long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me. So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth. Jesus asked the boy's father, How long has he been like this? From childhood, he answered, It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him, but if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us. If you can, said Jesus. Everything is possible for one who believes. Immediately the father the boy's father exclaimed, I do believe. Help me overcome my unbelief. When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. You deaf and mute spirit, he said, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again. The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently, and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, He's dead. But Jesus took him by the hand to lift him to his feet and he stood up. After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, why couldn't we drive it out? He replied, This kind can only can come out only by prayer. So, Connor, what amazes you about this interaction?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, I mean there's there is there's so much we could talk about, and I'm I'm gonna leave I'm gonna leave some of it maybe for you. Leave a little meat on the bone, and so I'm gonna go something that never really had had occurred to me. Um and maybe I'm reading too much into the dynamics, but we always like to put ourselves kind of uh try to physically put ourselves there almost of like, what does this look like? And you get this picture of the of the Pharisees uh and the disciples are having this argument back and forth, and it seems to have been caused by this man um and his son and the disciples not being able to cast out this demon, and that causes some sort of argument. And you almost get this like uh it almost I maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you almost get this picture that like they were unable to cast out this demon. The Pharisees are using it as a chance to pounce, and the disciples are defending themselves and fighting, and there's this back and forth, and it's almost like Jesus comes to talk it through, and suddenly like this father and the boy have been kind of shunted off to the side a little bit, almost like they're not really a part of what's going on that for the disciples and the Pharisees, it's become much more about the opportunity of pouncing on Jesus' people, or hey, we gotta defend ourselves because of this or that. Um, and and maybe I'm incorrect in my reading, but like as I as I picture this and as I try to pick up on as many clues as I possibly can, that that kind of is what it feels like. And that is just um it is so incredibly beautiful to think about um you know how easy it is, how tense a situation is as the disciples are waiting for Jesus and and and the chosen few to to come down from the mountaintop. Um, and they have somebody desperate for healing come to them, and they've had times in the past where they were able to cast out demons and suddenly it's not working, and then oh crud, the Pharisees realize it's not working, and and you you can almost sense that panic or that that anger or the frustration or the defensiveness that the disciples feel. Um and also from the Pharisees, you can feel the the the chance of of pouncing, of of using this person's uh illness as a as a club to to beat the people um that follow Jesus with. And man, I just love that the first thing that interaction that Jesus has is not, well, let's sift through all the arguments. It's strictly him uh getting to to be with the person like he's this is so dignifying, right? This is so dignifying, because if you think about what what the big story is here, it's the fact that there's this big clash between the Pharisees and the disciples, and the disciples say something that could get Jesus in trouble with the Pharisees, and what what could possibly be happening? What are the long-term effects to his ministry? Um and yet uh the the first order of action here, um, the first thing that Jesus pays attention to, because you know, may maybe it's like this guy comes up to Jesus and that's the first word he hears, but like if there's arguing and Jesus is hearing it, um, like he could bypass this guy and just walk straight into the argument, and yet he you know stops and listens. Um and for me that's just that's amazing because it's so easy to look at um to look at a tragedy like this or or suffering like this um and try to use it to our own advantage. I try to use people um to our own advantage, and so the fact that Jesus doesn't is amazing to me.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah, I I think I I think the word that was the word that was on my mind is his finesse. I I don't know if that's exactly right, um, but that is what what amazes me about this whole interaction and so many of his interactions that he he comes down, he how do I say this? So so when I say finesse, if I'm talking to one person and we're really getting into it as far as this is the the meat of the block between them and God, this is like the heart of it, you know, and they're being honest, and man, I can become a Jew to the Jew, a Greek to the Greek. I'm like, hey, I know what it's like to doubt God, to be angry at the church, or I know what it's like to be overwhelmed by life and think Christianity didn't have the answers, or I know what it's like to feel like, man, I've served, I've served, I've served, and it's not getting better. I know that, and I can tailor another person walks in and now it's adjusting, especially if I know that other person. And now if there's 300 people around me, now I'm adjusting that way. And so it is hard. That that's a complication for me, you know. And I have a bunch of stories in my mind where I'm with one person talking, and man, we got a lot of traction, and another person comes in and they start asking questions that I'm like, that's not their question. Like, like you're getting caught up in all this minutia. And and it's not a controlling, like he literally the flow of the conversation. He he seems to ask, Why are you arguing with them? And so that I assume he's like disciples arguing with the teacher of the law. And then the man comes up and kind of interrupts. He's like, hey, teacher, and then his comment in 19, you unbelieving generation. It's like, it seems almost tone-deaf the first three sentences or first two sentences, or two questions. How long shall I stay with you? How long should I put up with you? Then then very proactive, bring the boy to me, you know, and they bring him, and then all these by theatrics don't mean he's he's making I'm talking about the demonstration of the demon, you know, throwing this kid and fighting that interaction. And then how long is he who cares how long has he been this way? So that's interesting to me, but there's reason, you know, and and the the whole thing about this that that is fascinating is that he is so good at it, Jesus is so good at it. He's teaching the man, even the boy, who who doesn't have the ability, I would think, to draw it in, but he'll hear these stories. He's teaching his apostles, he's teaching the teacher the law if they're open to it, and then he's teaching the crowd. And it's interesting because he doesn't laser focus. This is where I run into trouble. It's like, okay, I I've got answers or context for this one, but now I've got this group. Oh, now I've got this group, especially when it's a an overtly competing group that are trying, like you talk about, to tear him down, you know, that's looking for a you know, a wedge issue. Yeah, some some something to divide over. Yeah, exactly. And so he is doing, oh, you're all unbelieving. And I'm just thinking about if I'm Peter, I've just experienced this amazing, and he's like, Whoa, does wait, I'm part of this generation. He doesn't mean me, does he? Does he mean me? And I'm like, wait, what is the parts in me that are, you know, even in that? So coming from the highest high, maybe the lowest low, is you got a guy like Thomas who's very analytical, and he's like, Man, we did all this stuff. Like, because keep in mind, they've already been sent out and cast out demons. So they've had experience. And so that that is just a fascinating dynamic to me that he's caring for each of them and using the same words, and not whereas I would have been tempted to be like, all right, guy, let's get this boy healed as quick as possible. But then you would have lost that amazing interaction where Jesus is like, hey, if you believe, and he's like, I believe, and that's also amazing. And he's like, help me because I don't believe, which is always a funny interaction because it's like, say, I believe everything you say, Connor. I don't believe anything you say, but help me so I can move into my desire. And Jesus is like, All right, I'll heal on that basis. I mean, so the want to have faith is enough, apparently, and then heals him. And it's also interesting when the crowd comes running, is when he's kind of like, all right, we need to put an end to this. Where he could have healed this guy, he could have healed him on top of the mountain, you know, if he wanted to. But he's like, bring him to me. So now there's this proximity. Well, now the crowd, there's already a crowd that's there, excited, just because, and overwhelmed even with Jesus. But now, once the shrieking starts happening, every or the or the throwing him around starts happening, more people come in, and then he's like, poof, you know, he's like, he's out, and then now he's dead. And he's like, oh man. I I just the the physical, the potential for physical, emotional, psychological uh fatigue is so high, and still his finesse is so apparent. That's just that's stunning to me.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I mean, it is stunning. You know, one thing that my mind is drawn towards and and in terms of when Jesus or when the Father um you know says, I do believe, help me, um, help me with my unbelief. I my mind is drawn. Uh I I think we had had a previous conversation to recording, which always happens. And I don't know if if you knew this is what our pastor was today, my mind had completely slipped. And maybe there was a small part of me that was like, you know, uh knew we were gonna go here. I I don't know. Um had tracked from the week. I'll I'll just be honest. I doubt that. I intellectually knew that because uh uh I'm I have a baby at home, and so my ability to keep track of things is pretty low. So maybe yes, yes, yes. Okay, I I wondered why there are microphones. Um but I mean, I I'm so we were talking about uh we were talking about belief and we're talking about strongly held beliefs and yet actions in people's lives that would directly contradict that actually being a belief, you know. Um and I remember when I was like a baby baby Christian, like as a as a late teen, um a late teen, I remember suddenly becoming like on fire for Jesus and just like all of a sudden. And if you have kids in the car below the age of like 16, I would say pause it for now. Um but I I remember being on fire for Jesus and just absolutely adoring him and loving him and knew this was the only way I could I could do anything. At the same time, I had been introduced to porn at a very young age and had become addicted, you know. I what what we mean when we say that word, you know, who knows. Um but for me as a 17, 18 year old, that was very much true. Um, and I was consuming Christian content all the time. Like I was listening to preachers and pastors all the time, and yet I had this weight, this guilt on me all the time for this, for this sin that I knew was wrong. I knew it was wrong before I was a Christian, but like certainly knew it was wrong after. Um and I remember there was this very famous preacher that was was talking about porn issues and talking about how like you know you have if if you've got this issue, man, you don't even have like you haven't taken one step up on the walk. You could you can be saved, but you haven't even taken really one step up on the ladder of faith. And I remember it just it devastated me. Because like, man, I I feel so alive and and and on fire for Jesus, and yet I've got this struggle and I've got this pain. Um and I desperate I I I pray to God every single time, every single night, every single day that this uh that that He would take this away from me that what I thought it was was that like if I just believe hard enough, if I just believe uh believe hard enough, or if I actually even worse than that, I I thought because I couldn't overcome it by myself, um, that I didn't believe enough. That that um that yeah, yeah. I anyways, all all that being said, I'm just so moved um by the response that Jesus has here. Um because he does he does question people's belief and their faith and and where they're putting it. Um but answering the question like for all time in in every issue, whether it's both faith in who Jesus is or it's faith for his ability to come through, to answer the question of like, yeah, God is not looking at your faith and being like, Well, if you really had true faith, Jason, then you would get over that issue. You know, if if the church really had faith, um, then this would happen happening and and this would would be it. What God is after and what Jesus is after in this moment, I think is what he was after for me when I was 18, what he's after me now as a 30-year-old, um, with other issues, is to say, God, man, I I believe. And yet there are areas in my life where like I I am just I'm so struggling. Will you help me? Will you help me with my unbelief? Um, both my unbelief that takes me into um dangerous waters um and my unbelief that stops me from entering into into into your goodness. Um and so yeah, I I just felt like we couldn't we couldn't move on to perplexion without touching a little bit on on what amazes me about that passage and specifically how it related to what you had said and what sparked in me.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah, and I think I think it's such an important passage to me that it not just that the man says it, but Jesus' reaction um it it just we you hear a ton of stuff, and if if you're a human being and have listened to Preaching over the years, teaching over the years, reading, you know, you've read this and stuff. You've got a lot of dissonance. You've got a lot of you had this phrase when you were 15, and then you heard one when you were 16, and then 19, and they're all like slightly different describing Jesus, and you have your own view of Jesus, everybody does, your view of God's power, and then you have all the slices of how does omniscience show up? Like him knowing everything, and how does that apply? And and how how do you have all the power in the world and there's still bad stuff in the world, and all these kind of things, and everybody's got a slightly different take. And a lot of times our faith crisis is when two of those things come right to the surface because of something happening in our life. And I think to know at that moment that if Jesus is standing there and he's like, Hey, I'm gonna do good for you, do you believe? And you saying, I believe, but help me, because it's really hard to believe. He's not like I don't know what's so hard about it. It's the same. We made this case many times about before we're gonna deliver the Great Commission, and the 11 apostles are there and they're worshiping him, but some doubted. It's like, what? I mean, literally, the resurrected Jesus is right in front of you. You can see his hands in his side, you know, this kind of thing. And yet they're still doubting, and he's like, Yeah, I'm giving the Great Commission to all of you because if you want God, then the Spirit will find you, you know, and so it's the desire of wanting him that's that level of belief. Now, there's I'm not suggesting there's not depths uh that can be uh achieved and more maturity in it. Uh it's it's much easier for me to touch my belief in God than it was 25 years ago, 30 years ago for sure, um, because of just continuing to choose God, and then it kind of accumulates and you have inertia and momentum in that way. But when you have a crisis, by definition, it's causing you to question your foundational stuff. And I think number one, expect to have a crisis. And number two, when you have a crisis, no, Jesus is there, and he's like, Will you believe now with this crisis that you thought I would show up this way and I didn't? I allowed XYZ to happen and I didn't stop it. Can you trust me now? And the answer, an appropriate answer is, I believe, but help me, because I really don't believe right now. And he's like, All right, we'll work with that.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Yeah, so this is one of those, I think it's one of those perfect examples where it's like, man, I do think um, I think I I I believe, you know, trying to put a quantity or a scale on belief is uh maybe a unhelpful. I think it's an art much more than it is a science. Um, I you know, longtime listeners of the podcast will know we'll know the history behind our our discussion around belief. Um but one of the things I wish uh five years ago, man, I'd had the language for um is I I I bring it up all the time. And yet it's just it's it's the most beautiful picture to me um I've ever heard of heaven. It's at the end of the Chronicles of Narnia. I've long time listeners again will will he I I I have will have heard me repeat this uh these lines over and over again. But uh spoiler alert for the Chronicles of Narnia, if you need to pause again for any young children that haven't read it, um all the kids, except for one, I guess, uh die. And they are they're in heaven. Um they don't necessarily they don't it's not called heaven, it's in heaven. Um and the first things that begin to happen um is they are on an adventure and the phrase as they as they travel forth into heaven is further up and further in. And I think that that that is my my feeling with my belief, where it's like, man, there are there are things that I would have had doubt over five years ago or two years ago, or last week even, that like God has helped me overcome my belief. And it's like, man, I uh there's some doubt I had uh five years ago about something that I God God has helped me overcome my belief, un my unbelief in that. Um, and yet I've gone further up and further in with my walk with Jesus, which has required me to trust him more, which has required me to go further out for him. Um to not, you know, it's not like I want wanted God to answer my doubt and then be like, okay, cool. Now we're now we're safe and we just get to stay exactly where we are. Well I've been able to I'm able to have a hundred percent uh assent to uh all the most important things that Jesus cares about. It's like no man, like when I f when you follow God, he is taking you further out and further, you know, further out and further into to who he is. Um and that is going to necessitate you having both maybe more or a different kind of faith. It's going to take an altering of it. Um and that's that's good. And so today, you know, five, six years ago, whenever that was when I got fired for the for the lack of belief, um like there are things that uh would have made me doubt then that I would be like, man, God has helped me overcome my unbelief, and I'm so proud of that. And so I'm not proud of that. I'm so I'm so amazed by that. And and and it's beautiful and it's great, and and I can assent to those things that maybe I had more doubts about in the past. And yet today, there are things that are also I I have to call out to God that are new and say, Man, God help my unbelief. And that only happened because I was willing to keep going and keep trusting and keep going further and asking. Um and my my assumption is is maybe there's a point I'm 80 years old, I've asked that a thousand times, and I have no nowhere else to go. There's all my I have perfect, you know, perfect belief. Um my my suspicion is is this is gonna be a journey that I'm on for the rest of my life. Um until until until glory one day.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

But yeah, and I think I think it's so very important that when we consider James one always jumps in my mind, consider pure joy when you face trials of many kinds. Why? Because then it develops perseverance. When you continue to choose, man, I'm choosing joy, not feeling joy, I'm choosing, I'm counting this as joy, um, because I believe in God, I believe he'll make this very bad thing, he'll redeem it in some way. That doesn't develop within itself maturity. The maturity is developed by persevering, which literally means hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, you know. And that's the thing is if you hurt me deeply, where else am I going to go in my relationship with you until we resolve it? But with God, he's like, I get it, that hurt, and I know you hold me responsible, and yet I'm still saying, can you hold on and be mad at me? Uh hence that you have a percentage of Psalms that they're they're very upset, they're very angry. Uh and so, yeah, all of that is just so important.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So I again we'll move on to perfection real quick, but this just popped into my mind. And you know, you always talk about uh, you know, God didn't design parenthood on accident, you know, uh, and the metaphors we see in in the Bible or or straight up truths in the Bible about God being our father are not uh incidental to the experiences we have as parents. But right now Indigo is in a in a in a big phase where she's really finding her voice. Um and Indigo is just the gentlest, kindest, sweetest girl I've ever known. Um, and I'm not biased. Uh but uh recently she has started to be like much more challenging and pushing on uh boundaries and issues. Um and one of the things we're we're we're trying, you know, is so important for us to get across to her and for her to learn um when she doesn't understand a rule we've made, and our rules are not 100% perfect like gods are. Um, but when we make a rule, um it's it's it's one of those hard things for her to connect as like, hey, okay, I don't like this, I don't get it. One, you still gotta accept it, and two, you gotta realize it's all coming from love. Um and it's one of those things you you begin to learn as a as a as a kid, okay, I'm really mad at my parents about this, but they still love me and I still love them. And and you know, sometimes even later in life, there can be um real anger at your parents' decision. Um, and maybe the anger is justified because they're not God and they get a lot of stuff wrong. But one of the things I've worked on a lot when I think about my parents and the issues I've I had with them, and they were not they were not perfect, and sometimes they did really, really wrong things. Um but part of my journey in terms of how I think about my childhood or or growing up is is the is the recognition um that what my parents were attempting to do with me, um, even when they failed miserably or even acted selfishly at different points, um, they man, they they were attempting, um, they were attempting to love me and to guide me into better and healthier ways than a natural five or six year old would would would do by themselves. Um and again, they didn't do that perfectly, they were not God. Um and yet, man, when I can really get to that place and recognize and even see in my own failings and my own raising of my daughter and and my desperation for her to see, man, I have good intentions towards you, even when you're angry with me. Um I have I have good intentions towards you. Like seeing that battle with my own daughter, and then you know, uh and I think I'm probably a better parent than I than my parents were, and I don't say that as like a mean thing. Like I hope my kids are better parents than I am. Um like if I succeed as a parent, my kids will be better parents than than me. Um and yet, like the process of of going through that with my daughter and just desperately wanting her to see um that even when even when there's punishment or even when there's consequences, um like man just keep, don't, don't pull away. I want to hear why you're angry, why you think it's unfair. Um and yeah, it is one of those small areas of parenting that has helped give me insight both into my upbringing and then also, man, how must how how much how much more must God feel um about how much more similar must he feel and also justified because he is the perfect parent, and I I'm certainly not.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

I and I think that that constant uh awareness that he's wanting to teach you, that he's not begrudgingly again, you know, really unbelief here. Yeah, and and Jesus has that, and again, I put tone, I don't know what his tone was. Uh when he says, unbelieving generation, how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Um I'd I'd be even interested in the in the Greek there and saying, okay, is that put up with? How how else could you translate that? Is there a gentler tone, especially be when he immediately goes to bring the boy to me? Um But his humanity felt fatigue, his humanity felt uh being overwhelmed and and being like, How does this, how's this gonna work out? You know, kind of thing. And you know, that's always gonna be a mystery to us to some to some way. But I I do think uh continuing to say, okay, what if I was the perfect father here? How especially when something's passed and you know better how to read a more 2020 vision on, oh, I should have done X and Y. Um then you think, oh, God's trying to do that with me right now, and He's not doing it like, oh, you got one more chance and we're out, you know, and that and that is really amazing. I I'm gonna lean into you. I've got something perplexing. I I'm still not satisfied with it. What do you got? What what perplexes you about this? Uh simply it's it's two words.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Uh in 29, you're uh not he replied, but in 29, this kind. And he's speaking of of demons can can come out only by prayer. Um again, this is one of those things that seems to be in the air, this seems to be like it's just such common knowledge, like you talked about in our kind of in our preface, um, that it's like, oh, we don't even we don't even discuss this because like everybody knows what's going on. Um but like what in the world does this kind, you know? Because like if I if I were to like, man, somebody in front of me, they're like hardcore cessationists, there is no really no move to the spirit, there's no spiritual warfare. Like, okay, man, how do I convince them? Man, there are there really are active demons in the world or active um evil forces or spirits. And it's like, okay, well, let's like trying to also then think, okay, well then they're also, hey, different kinds or sub like subgroupings, or uh there's this whole other world here that is just so foreign to me. Uh and yet like it even in those two words, that implies so much more depth than I have access to, and I'm just left kind of like I don't even know what to do with like if if all demons are very are one kind of group or whatever, like that's hard enough for me, anyways. But like there's this whole these this whole other subset of categorization of of different uh dark spiritual forces. I'm like I don't okay, God, I'm just gonna I'm I'm gonna do my best to love my neighbor and love you and just keep moving forward. Because that's that's what makes me I want to know more, but then I'm like I don't know, so I'll just kind of put my head down, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah, well, and I I join you in that perplexion. And it's funny because this kind, I'm like, oh yeah, that that's really important. My question that I first was approaching with was, you weren't praying with the others? Like, what and what are we saying here? I don't assume it's like you say this form prayer, then you can do it. My assumption is you're saying, God, I want you to do it, you know, and going to that, uh, and again, I can't remember if it's 1719 in Acts, um, but it but where you said seven sons of Skeva, and a guy's going in and saying, or these these seven sons of this priest are going in and they're like, Hey, in the name of Jesus, who Paul preaches, come out, and the seven the man with the demons beats them and strips them naked and sends them out bloody and and nude, and it's like, oh, okay, so that that's real. Um, and what you believe, and so when I think prayer, I don't think of I said these words, it's just that constant awareness that God and I are in a conversation. This is that pray without ceasing. And so, yeah, all of this, and and I come to the same conclusion you do. Uh number one, I and this I infer this from what you're saying, but these disciples, we've made this case many times. Please stop thinking that if Jesus Christ was suddenly walking with you physically, that everything would clear up. The these men have cast out demons and they came to this situation, and I can't even imagine the emotional debrief, debrief from this. It's like, hey, how you feeling, Andrew? Especially if they had any sense that something amazing happened on the mountain. Not only were you not chosen, but now you couldn't do the fail that you've already done. And then he's saying, Yeah, this requires prayer. And I I just can't imagine that Thaddeus is like, oh yeah, we totally forgot to pray. Um, which means to me, we were trying to do it by our own power. And I'm not even saying that's what it means, I'm just trying to reason through it. But bottom line is number one, Jesus being beside you wouldn't necessarily make it clearer. And if he made something clearer, then you'd have a new space to be unclear on something. It's just the nature of how big God is. And number two, uh God is if you go just into the next chapter or the next section, what's he doing? He's just living life and saying, just keep following me. The same thing he be effectively said to the father, it's like, hey, just keep trying to believe.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

So um this is one of those examples where like I wonder if there's somebody who's listening to this podcast who's m maybe even much older than I was gonna say us, but truthfully, much older than you, um, who grew up on the King James, where like I wonder if if if they're like, Jason, I can unlock this for you. Um because I was like, I was curious, because there's a note in probably everyone's Bible that says some manuscripts talk about it. Um some manuscript scripts include prayer and fasting. Uh so the KJV uh KJV says, and he said unto them, this kind of this kind can come forth by nothing but by prayer and fasting. Um and so that would be interesting, you know. I'd I'd be it I assume when it says some manuscripts, I assume the earliest manuscripts don't have fasting. Um, but you do wonder if there's some s again, this this gets to like maybe it's just like nitpicky or whatever, it's like, or I'm trying to reduce what is happening here down to a formula, but you do wonder if there's like there's something here about um about the way that Jesus has lived as he comes into as as he as he experiences the transfiguration and and that the process they go through that, and may maybe there's something wrapped up into it there. I I have no idea. I echo your perplexion. It's not even if even if even with that, maybe it gets a touch clearer about what could possibly be happening here, um, but yet still leaves you with plenty of perplexions, even if, even if the some of the older manuscripts are are or are uh are more accurate to what uh Jesus says, um even if those are the ones, it's still still plenty perplexed.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah, and and I and I love I love and I hate uh that there's not a a debrief, there's not a pull aside uh in and every gospel runs a little bit differently, but like the next conversation, he's like, Yeah, by the way, I'm gonna die. And and so it's like, okay, so we're back to that messaging. Um, and I think there's coherence in it. I'm not suggesting there's not, but biblical coherence, like it, I have to distinguish between the Bible makes sense on its own, even my interpretation doesn't. And here's the truth: my interpretation will never lock it all in. And I think that's just an important part and why we're called to humility, and and to be much more emphasis on curiosity and choosing to believe no matter what, than certainty. And I'll be the judge of this. Uh, and so may I give you 20 minutes on that? But I will free you from that burden. Grace, peace, and love.